Total Immersion Forums  

Go Back   Total Immersion Forums > Freestyle
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 10-15-2011
Mike Wray Mike Wray is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 90
Mike Wray
Default Six beat kick

I'm fairly new to TI and in the early stages of learning but I do feel I am making some progress towards a more efficient style. I am beginning to get the stroke to synchronize with a two beat kick. I can see from the videos and from my own swimming how the two beat kick causes the body rotation. However I feel as though I'd like to use a relaxed six beat kick maybe with the accent still on the first and third. When I try this at the moment my synchronisation between arms and legs goes hopelessly wrong. The extra beats don't seem to synchronise naturally with body roll in the way the two beat kick does. Does the TI method cover the use of a six beat kick and if so does anyone have any tips on how to get the timing right? This isn't a major problem because I'm sure it will all sort itself out by practice, and as I said I'm a beginner, but I'd still be interested to know if anyone has a comment on this.
Mike
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 10-15-2011
Lawrence Lawrence is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: London, UK
Posts: 804
Lawrence
Default

It isn't TI doctrine but the best way to find your ideal kick is to forget about kicking.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 10-15-2011
borate borate is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 533
borate
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Wray View Post
I am beginning to get the stroke to synchronize with a two beat kick. I can see from the videos and from my own swimming how the two beat kick causes the body rotation. However I feel as though I'd like to use a relaxed six beat kick maybe with the accent still on the first and third. When I try this at the moment my synchronisation between arms and legs goes hopelessly wrong.
Lawrence has a point. Over analyzing the kick can make one crazy.
As the arm begins to pull, the leg on the same side kicks down. Thinking about that alone may prove helpful for synchronization, whether your kick is the recommended two beats ... or a comfortable six.

In the TI approach, the kick receives less emphasis than balance, streamlining and relaxation.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 10-15-2011
Mike Wray Mike Wray is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 90
Mike Wray
Default

Borate,
I do find I can get the stroke to work when I consciously kick down on the side where the arm begins to pull. That really seems to generate some propulsion and it feels right. Its just that there is a big gap between leg kicks with the two beat kick and I feel like I want to keep my legs going a bit more continuously. When I try the six beat kick I want to get it so the main down kick still matches the arm pull on the same side but it all goes out of synch! Maybe its better just not to do that until I am more secure with the basic stroke.
Mike
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 10-15-2011
borate borate is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 533
borate
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Wray View Post
When I try the six beat kick I want to get it so the main down kick still matches the arm pull on the same side but it all goes out of synch!
Maybe its better just not to do that until I am more secure with the basic stroke.
Sounds reasonable, with an objective of simply becoming a competent and comfortable recreational swimmer.
TI emphasizes sustenance over struggle, where the kick serves more as a stabilizer and timing aid than it does a propulsive force. OVER-kicking can lead to early fatigue.

Last edited by borate : 10-16-2011 at 02:35 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 10-16-2011
dshen dshen is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Palo Alto, CA
Posts: 200
dshen
Default

If you have a tempo trainer, you can use that to try to fine tune your 6 beat kick. The idea is to set the tempo trainer to 1/3 the tempo of your normal two beat kick swimming and then kick on each beep of the tempo trainer. so if you swim 2 beat kick at 1.2s tempo, then set the tempo trainer to .4s (1.2/3) and kick on each beep, and spear on every 3rd beep.

You may want to start at a slower than normal tempo to get used to the rhythm, like 1.8s for 2 beat kick swimming, but you would set the tempo trainer to 1.8/3 or .6s tempo.

Does that make sense?
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 10-16-2011
Mike Wray Mike Wray is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 90
Mike Wray
Default

borate and dshen,
thanks for the replies. I haven't got a tempo trainer but that does make sense; it would give something to focus the timing on. My object is only to become a competent and comfortable recreational swimmer. I've been able to swim crawl for years but it has never been relaxed. I'm trying to start again. I think maybe I'm rushing things and trying to think about too many things at the same time. Also I still feel a bit insecure balancing on my side in the glide. I don't really need to do a six beat kick but I note that a lot of competent and relaxed swimmers do use both kicks. Just thinking about it out of the water, it is very clear how the two beat kick synchronises with and causes the body roll, but a six beat kick seems to counter that effect. I wondered if there are any videos of competent TI swimmers incorporating a faster kick. When I look at the racers the whole thing is so fast that its difficult to pinpoint what is going on.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 10-16-2011
dshen dshen is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Palo Alto, CA
Posts: 200
dshen
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Wray View Post
borate and dshen,
I've been able to swim crawl for years but it has never been relaxed. I'm trying to start again. I think maybe I'm rushing things and trying to think about too many things at the same time. Also I still feel a bit insecure balancing on my side in the glide.
I think this statement is the key - definitely working on your balance will improve your overall swimming.

In the beginning the 6 beat kick may seem frenzied. Better to improve your balance for the glide phase which will be enhanced by using the 2 beat kick in the beginning v. adding in the extra motion of the 6 beat kick. By the way, a lot of people kick because they do not have good balance in the water - they use kicking to get their hips up. So using the 2 beat kick to first focus on balance will make things more clear on what needs to be worked on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Wray View Post
I don't really need to do a six beat kick but I note that a lot of competent and relaxed swimmers do use both kicks. Just thinking about it out of the water, it is very clear how the two beat kick synchronises with and causes the body roll, but a six beat kick seems to counter that effect.
A 6 beat kick should not counter the roll; remember you're only kicking once during the roll. The other 2 kicks are while you're on a single side. Then the one after those 2 kicks syncs with your body roll to the other side.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Wray View Post
I wondered if there are any videos of competent TI swimmers incorporating a faster kick. When I look at the racers the whole thing is so fast that its difficult to pinpoint what is going on.
That's a good question. I don't know offhand. Most are of people using the 2 beat kick to better demonstrate TI drills and concepts.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 10-16-2011
terry terry is offline
Head Coach
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,305
terry has disabled reputation
Default If a good 1500m is a higher priority than good 50m, use a 2BK

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Wray View Post
Its just that there is a big gap between leg kicks with the two beat kick and I feel like I want to keep my legs going a bit more continuously.
This is a misperception, but a very common one. There's a kind of bias that 2-beat kicks produce less speed than 6-beats, because people think the propulsion is continuous with a 6-beat vs intermittent in the 2-beat. This is only true if you're swimming 100 meters or less. For any greater distance, the 2-beat is more efficacious.

As I wrote in Chapter 10 "Integrated Kicking: Less Work, More Speed"
of my book, Extraordinary Swimming: A guide to swimming [all strokes] better than you ever imagined I described a study by legendary Indiana University and US Olympic Coach Doc Counsilman which showed how inefficient the kick is at generating speed.

Here's an excerpt: "Counsilman conducted an experiment in which swimmers were towed at various speeds. At each speed, he measured the tension on the line with the swimmer kicking and with the legs streamlined. The only instance in which kicking added propulsion was at slow towing speeds--with the swimmer kicking at maximum effort. At faster speeds the kick contributed nothing and often actually increased drag!
Counsilman compared the pull and kick to a car with separate front-wheel and rear-wheel drive. If the front wheels turn at 30 mph, but the rear wheels turn at 20 mph, the resultant speed will not be 50 but less than 30, because the rear wheels create drag. The same thing happens when a swimmer overemphasizes the kick. The kick consumes energy and creates drag – more work, less speed.
Other studies compared the oxygen consumption of pulling only, kicking only, and swimming whole-stroke. Each study found that intensive kicking greatly increases energy cost. Kicking at a speed of about 60 seconds for 50 yards – moderate speed for any competitive swimmer–consumes four times as much oxygen as swimming at the same speed."

TI teaches 2BK not in isolation but integrated with Balance, Lateral Stability, Streamlining and Weight-Shift-based Propulsion. When practiced this way it contributes significantly to speed, while minimizing both drag and and the requirement for energy and power. This process is outlined in Lesson 10 of the Self-Coached Workshop DVD.

Unless swimming a fast 50 or 100 meters is your primary goal, this is a far better outcome than you can gain by working on a 6BK.
__________________
Terry Laughlin
Head Coach & Chief Executive Optimist

May your laps be as happy as mine.

My TI Story

Last edited by terry : 10-16-2011 at 01:20 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 10-16-2011
Mike Wray Mike Wray is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 90
Mike Wray
Default

Terry and dshen,
Thanks for your replies.
That makes a lot of sense. I haven't actually got a very powerful kick so I'll concentrate on the two beat kick and forget the other, at least for now. I think its just that I think I ought to be doing more with my legs.

Terry,
I've often wondered whether the kick contributes anything at all if you are moving at a speed faster than the kick is generating. From the experiment you mention wouldn't it be the case that unless you have a particularly powerful six beat kick, the kick wouldn't add anything even in a 50m race?
Mike
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are Off
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 05:31 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.