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  #21  
Old 10-10-2012
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Originally Posted by rwilkes View Post
Hi again,

Thank you both for your replies, again very valuable.

I think my balance is ok, not great but there will always be room for improvement in this area. It may well have something to do with lifting my head when breathing, always struggled on breathing. I breath on every two strokes which may hamper my stroke as there is more chance to become out of streamline.

One major thing however, is my propulsion. I never feel that I get good movement, therefore on the slower pace setting on the tt, I don't feel the "glide". But if it was my propulsion, then would I get 16 spl on a 1.6 tt setting ??? This is very difficult !!!!

It was my first attempt at the tt, so I will try the set again on Friday and see what happens. I will post the results for you to look at.

Eventually, well next July, I would like to be in a position where I can go under 30 mins for the 1500m! Wishful thinking !!!


Thanks again,

Russ
It may be propulsion, but the first thing to look at is streamlining. You move by eliminating drag first and only then adding propulsion.

it's possible you are not anchoring in the water well.. but even still if you are very balanced AND streamlined, you could have someone give you a gently push from behind and you would glide 1/4 to 1/3 of the way across the pool before stopping.
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Suzanne Atkinson, MD
Level 3 USAT Coach
USA Paralympic Triathlon Coach
Coach of 5 time USA Triathlon Triathlete of the Year, Kirsten Sass
Steel City Endurance, LTD
Fresh Freestyle

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  #22  
Old 10-12-2012
rwilkes rwilkes is offline
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Hi coachsuzanne,

This was my latest attempt at the tt:

1.4. 16 spl
1.5. 16
1.6. 16
1.7. 14
1.8. 18
1.9. 18
1.8. 18
1.7. 18
1.6. 16
1.5. 16
1.4. 16
1.3. 16
1.2. 16

I'm still not convinced or sure how I can use the tt effectively. At times I missed the beep slightly and hurried the next stroke to catch up - hope that is just getting used to the tt.

Also in think your are right about anchoring my hand. I pull instead of holding the water, I find this very difficult to achieve.

Also, when you swim, do you make effort to move your hips up and down, make that twist or snap, or do you let it flow and your hips move automatically. Sorry to ask this one, but should I make full effort to shift my hips to propel forward when the beep sounds on hand entry ???

After this set, I completed a few mini drills purely on anchoring my hand for the catch, I think I felt something different, fingers spread helped. I also made effort to point my elbow to the side more, again this may have helped a bit.

I hope can get used to the tt, reading the forum, it can only help me in achieving 1500m in under 30 mins.

Many thanks

Russ
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  #23  
Old 10-12-2012
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rwilkes View Post
Hi coachsuzanne,

This was my latest attempt at the tt:

1.4. 16 spl
1.5. 16
1.6. 16
1.7. 14
1.8. 18
1.9. 18
1.8. 18
1.7. 18
1.6. 16
1.5. 16
1.4. 16
1.3. 16
1.2. 16

I'm still not convinced or sure how I can use the tt effectively. At times I missed the beep slightly and hurried the next stroke to catch up - hope that is just getting used to the tt.

Also in think your are right about anchoring my hand. I pull instead of holding the water, I find this very difficult to achieve.

Also, when you swim, do you make effort to move your hips up and down, make that twist or snap, or do you let it flow and your hips move automatically. Sorry to ask this one, but should I make full effort to shift my hips to propel forward when the beep sounds on hand entry ???

After this set, I completed a few mini drills purely on anchoring my hand for the catch, I think I felt something different, fingers spread helped. I also made effort to point my elbow to the side more, again this may have helped a bit.

I hope can get used to the tt, reading the forum, it can only help me in achieving 1500m in under 30 mins.

Many thanks

Russ
I see more consistency in this set than the last...progress! I see a lower "high" SPL in this set than the last...progress. I see a 14 that snuck in there! Big progress...how did that happen?

The tempo trainer will reveal all sorts of things that you can work on.

Try swimming at a comfortable tempo with no regard to SPL. Rotate your focus between timign the beep with hand entry and timing the beep with your hips. They will feel different. one will feel better to you. one will take more energy or more thought. Play with them and see if one results eventually in a crisper stroke, more on-tempo stroke or a lower SPL (the one that feels easier isn't necessarily better, it just feels easier because it's closer to what you've been already doing...change always feels hard. But harder doesn't mean better either).

Mistiming strokes is frequently a breathing issue. Turn the head with the body rotation to get air and your breathign stroke will always be the same duration as the non -breathing stroke...that's the aim for the most part.

Lots of ways to benefit from it.
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Suzanne Atkinson, MD
Level 3 USAT Coach
USA Paralympic Triathlon Coach
Coach of 5 time USA Triathlon Triathlete of the Year, Kirsten Sass
Steel City Endurance, LTD
Fresh Freestyle

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  #24  
Old 10-15-2012
rwilkes rwilkes is offline
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Hi coachsuzanne (and anyone else reading this !!),

Once again, many thanks for your feedback, it is invaluable to me.

I think your right, progress on my last session was made. More consistency was there. Still not quite sure where the 14 spl came from, better balance and control on that length I guess. I will do the set again this week.

Can you please confirm if my thinking is right here for 2 goals for my tri swims next season. First, if I want to swim the 400m in 7 mins, and I consistently do 18 spl, plus 3 for push off/ turns:

420/336=1.25 tt

Would I set my training session around this setting, including sessions above and below ?? Likewise, for my 1500m tri swim, If I could get this down to 29 mins, again with 18spl,plus 3 for push/turns:

1740/1260=1.38 tt

Again, would I aim for this and train above and below this tt setting?

Sorry for this question, it will be my last !!!!

Many thanks again

Russ
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  #25  
Old 10-15-2012
andyinnorway andyinnorway is offline
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Your maths is spot on

21 strokes *1.25 is 26.25s per length which is an even 1.45/100m or 7 minutes per 400.

If you want to get your 1500m down to 29 minutes, then just swim 4x400m as above with 1-2 minute rest in between and that should take care of that too. They are similar goals, just over the 1500m you will have at least 1 extra stroke per lap to allow yourself. Personally, I think when you get used to doing consistent 400's at 18SPL and TT's from 1.25 to 1.2 you will be able to hold that pace at 1500 +- a few dropped strokes or missed beep turns, so you can expect a time of 26.30 or so for 1500m.

Once you have done a few sessions at 1.25 I would taking the TT down to 1.20 and see if you can hold the 18SPL there too, then you will be nearer 6.45 for the 400 and 25.30 for the 1500m.

Happy beeping.
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  #26  
Old 10-16-2012
rwilkes rwilkes is offline
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Hi andy,

thanks for your reply and your optimism !!! I hope I can get down to the times you mentioned !!

I did a test today of 3 x 100m, with the tt set at 1.4. This is the 3rd time of using to tt, so below i hope is just teathing troubles:

Set 1 = 2m 02 sec

16, 18, 18, 18 = 70 + 12 = 82 = 122/82 = 1.48 tt

Set 2 = 2m 02 sec

16, 18, 18, 18 = 70 + 12 = 82 = 122/82 = 1.48 tt

Set 3 = 2m 04 sec

18, 18, 18, 18 = 72 = 12 = 84 = 124/84 = 1.47 tt

So, even though I had the tt set at 1.40, average would say i swam at 1.48tt. My timing of the beep must have been way off at times.

Do you think this is just practice needed?

Also, i push on a beep, miss one beep then stroke on the 3rd beep. Is this correct.

To count the stroke, I use the Garmin 910xt, which counts the stroke only on my left hand (hand with the watch on), so i just double the number to get all stroke on one length. Not sure if this is accurate, should my first stroke always be my left hand ???

Apologies for asking your advice on the tt, but your thoughts would be so helpful.

Many thanks

Russ
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  #27  
Old 10-17-2012
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Originally Posted by rwilkes View Post

Also, i push on a beep, miss one beep then stroke on the 3rd beep. Is this correct.

To count the stroke, I use the Garmin 910xt, which counts the stroke only on my left hand (hand with the watch on), so i just double the number to get all stroke on one length. Not sure if this is accurate, should my first stroke always be my left hand ???
Stop using the Garmin to count your strokes, and count them yourself. The difference of 1 stroke is huge, especially over 100 m or yd. Plus when you count them yourself, you hvae feedback as you are swimming, not just after the fact. If you do your normal pushoff, count 5 strokes and are usally over some specific cracked tile in the pool, then as you fatigue and you don't reach it , or if you are doing really great and you pass it, you'll know in the moment xactly how you are doing.

Without this stroke to stroke feedback you just have to hope that what you are doing today is working...the feedback needs to be instantaneous to work. Well...it doesn't have to be, but in this case...it's posslble that every length was actually 17 strokes, not 16 ,18, 18, 18, depending on which hand you started and ended on, if you took a half stroke, etc.

The garmin is fine for recording total work, but use your own mind and count stroke by stroke.

Also, FWIW, I push off 3 beeps and enter on the fourth.

Finally, I'm not sure what maths you are doing to cacluatel the 1.48 sec / stroke? If you are swimming with the beep, you are swimming at 1.4 sec/ stroke, and you'll know immediately if you've missed a beep.
__________________
Suzanne Atkinson, MD
Level 3 USAT Coach
USA Paralympic Triathlon Coach
Coach of 5 time USA Triathlon Triathlete of the Year, Kirsten Sass
Steel City Endurance, LTD
Fresh Freestyle

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  #28  
Old 10-17-2012
andyinnorway andyinnorway is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
Stop using the Garmin to count your strokes, and count them yourself. The difference of 1 stroke is huge, especially over 100 m or yd. Plus when you count them yourself, you hvae feedback as you are swimming, not just after the fact. If you do your normal pushoff, count 5 strokes and are usally over some specific cracked tile in the pool, then as you fatigue and you don't reach it , or if you are doing really great and you pass it, you'll know in the moment xactly how you are doing.

Without this stroke to stroke feedback you just have to hope that what you are doing today is working...the feedback needs to be instantaneous to work. Well...it doesn't have to be, but in this case...it's posslble that every length was actually 17 strokes, not 16 ,18, 18, 18, depending on which hand you started and ended on, if you took a half stroke, etc.

The garmin is fine for recording total work, but use your own mind and count stroke by stroke.

Also, FWIW, I push off 3 beeps and enter on the fourth.

Finally, I'm not sure what maths you are doing to cacluatel the 1.48 sec / stroke? If you are swimming with the beep, you are swimming at 1.4 sec/ stroke, and you'll know immediately if you've missed a beep.
Agree you need to count the strokes yourself, the garmin is great but not perfect yet. If I swim 50x25 with 10 seconds rest per length the garmin ususally reports about a 2km swim, otherwise its brilliant.

Stroke counting can be quite challenging when you have so much else to think about. I find counting just one side much easier (1 and 2 and 3 and) as then you are not having to count 11 and 12 and 13 which can actually throw you off time.

Secondly, if you are losing time on the TT then you can also double it up, so to swim with stroke rate of 1.4, set the TT on 0.7. I find this helps a lot with fixing the length of the turns and push off and for keeping a stricter pace.

It get also help you achieve consistency with catch preparation and recovery.

You can judge yourself how many beeps to use for a push off, but try not to push off so long that you have lost momentum below your normal swim speed. At slower TT settings like 1.4, it might be better to push off for 2 beats and enter the hand on the 3rd, or 2.5 if you have the TT set on 0.7

As for your set.

2m02s with TT@1.4 is 87 strokes.

that equates well with 18SPL plus 3 push off and 1 turn, less 1 stroke for no turn on lap 4, so it seems you are following the TT quite well, just the garmin missing a stroke on the first length?
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  #29  
Old 10-18-2012
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CoachStuartMcDougal CoachStuartMcDougal is offline
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Default What is your SPL and Pace - without the wall push?

This is a great discussion. I have found the Garmin largely in error on stroke and pace (they call it cadence) in open water (haven't used in a pool), tracking path is accurate though. I use the poolmate and is pretty good on counting strokes on one arm ; in 25 yard pool it has a slight error, usually adding a stroke whereas the 50 meter pool is almost spot on. And as Suzanne notes, one stroke is A LOT. And I often will even use 1/2 strokes too rather than hold longer glide when close to the wall.

I have found the most accurate and consistent method to count strokes (without the subjective wall push) is in a 50m pool with a clear 25m line. Start your swim, get into tempo, the first full arm crossing the 25m line is ONE and count strokes on tempo to the wall. Repeat on next lap, wait for 25m line to begin count strokes, count to the wall .. and so on through your set. If you start to add strokes on the 25m length, your are probably slowing from fatigue. If 25m SPL is 21 and tempo 1.05, 25m time = 22.05 seconds (21*1.05), DPS = 1.19m (25/21). Calculate 100m pace from there

The wall push is different swimmer to swimmer and introduces errors in our calculations. My 13 SPL maybe 14 to another and vice-versa depending on push. I use the 3 beeps off the wall, the first beep on push, third beep start stroke, fourth hand entry where SPL count begins. The three beeps is often added to the SPL for a true stroke count, i.e. 18 SPL + 3 beeps = 21. But given my actual DPS when swimming (without the push), my wall push to hand entry is actually five strokes.

I recently posted a 3 part blog on similar subject determining pace and SPL swimming in open water, Open Water Swimming - Getting Immediate Feedback of Pace and SPL #3 and much can be applied in the pool, since pool metrics are used for open water SPL and pacing.

This spread sheet may be helpful too, download from this link PaceTempo.xls spread sheet

Stuart
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  #30  
Old 10-18-2012
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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My god these guys are knowledgeable.

Still learning... forever will...

Nice work Stuart!
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