elbow angle prior to catch

[andyinnorway]

It must be Autumn because my head is full of technical curiosity again.

My observations are that there are two predominant ways to point the elbows during the spear phase, at 10 and 2 on the clock or 8 and 4.

Terry, Shinji and Sun Yang all seem to favour the latter, 8 and 4 as this gives you a straighter arm and therefore a little more reach(+DPS). The elbow is then 'popped' or comes up as the shoulder rotates to form the catch.

Rebecca Adlington, the swim smooth guys and some sprinters, use the 10 and 2 position, meaning that they spear the water with their arm or shoulder pre rotated, like the arm of a mechanical digger, and not dissimilar to ballet 1st position rotated 90 degrees, the arm forms a curved wing like position.

The advantage of this is that the forearm can just drop into the catch and therefore seems to be the choice of swimmers with higher stroke rate.

I seem to have ended up with one of each at the moment, long and straight on my extended arm as I turn to breathe and digger like on the other.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this and is there a TI coaching position that recommends the straight arm or is it just coincidence that Terry and Shinji both use it? Which puts less strain on the shoulders?

[WFEGb]

Hello Andy,

think anywhere is a thread where CoachSuzanne discussed the medical view for different spearangles...

The 10/2 position may give you the FEEL for (a little) more DPS because the catch has to embrace more felt water.

The 8/4 position might give you a more effortless FEELing just before the push phase because the arm falls (better should fall) into the right position nearly by itself.

There's anywhere a video with coach Gadi from Israel (Tempo and Strokes Drill). He's nearly a 9/3 spear swimmer. He starts the catch with a little wave from his hands. Think this gives him the FEELing of a better leverage for his catch-pre-push...

Sure you'll find a best TI-way in this curiosities.

Regards,
Werner

[Ghul]

I am having slight difficulty visualizing this but if I've understood you correctly
doesn't the 10/2 angle suggest a thumb-first entry, which seems to be thought
by many a no-no these days (too much internal rotation so bad for shoulder)?

[CharlesCouturier]

I'd like to follow that one, but still can't understand that 10/2 o clock thing

[WFEGb]

Hi Charles,

think it's the spear angle measured parallel to water surface. Head is the pointer's axis, arm is the pointer. 10 (swimming to the left side) is a little bit upward direction, 4 (swimming from right to left) is a little bit downward...

Hope that will fit Andy's intention...

Regards,
Werner

[andyinnorway]

i'll do some youtube stills and elaborate.

[andyinnorway]

Struggling with the upload limits so have usurped a website I am designing for someone.

Ignore the fencing and links, just look at the flash photos on the main page.

http://andyinnorway.wix.com/revells#!home/mainPage

Based on my logic from the original post that the lower elbow gives more reach and DPS, I would suggest this is good argument to classify Sun Yang as a TI swimmer in style, whereas Phelps and the two girls are high stroke rate rhythmic swimmers so the elbow goes into the spear facing up so the catch can be immediate?

Looking forward to some opinions on this one.

[Ghul]

I'm not sure it is possible to tell from still photographs: Adlington et al may
have had elbow pointed down when spearing but have now started to catch.
The elbow will pop up before the hand has moved down much.

[tomoy]

I'm still a little confused with this... which direction is 12:00? From the side, in most of these, pointing to the right? It would seem that 10/2 would be facing up out of the water, and that's confusing since neither are pointing out of the water.

From above facing forward? Then 8/4 would be pointing backwards, which also is confusing.

Maybe we're talking rotation of the arm, so 12:00 would be facing your palm up? And 6:00 would be rotating all the way like a thumbs-down position?

[CharlesCouturier]

LOL

I don't understand a thing.

PLLLLLease help me understand where the 10 comes in.

What I mean, if we're splitting 4 quadrant based on a standard clock, would water level be 9-3? If so, how on earth could you catch 10-2? Wouldn't be above water?

Dum it down though, I'm sometimes a little slow...

One thing is sure - since I can understand *Terry* *Rebecca*, these are 2 very distinct types of catch. thousands of people *think* then bend it like Beckie, but only a handful actually do. Takes some level of flexibility that just can *not* be achieve stretching holding position for 30 second 5 times per week sort of approach, which is still well over what most people do. People would actually be *shocked* if they saw elite stretching. They're closer, to circus animal than ordinary joes like us. So It ain't a matter of choice for most of us...