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  #41  
Old 01-07-2018
Tom Pamperin Tom Pamperin is offline
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Originally Posted by Danny View Post
So far I have only gotten down to the pool once to practice this. It has been so damn cold here that they closed school and with it the pool. Do you live in Michigan (southeast)? If so, it would be great sometime to meet you and swim.
Yep, been cold here too. I'm in Wisconsin--not so far away that a rendezvous would be unthinkable. It sure would be fun to meet and swim with some forumites in person.

I'll send a private message and see if we can work something out. I will be in Michigan in June up in the UP, and it might work well to drive through your area on the way over or back.
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  #42  
Old 01-07-2018
thaddeus.ward@gmail.com
 
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Thanks for the kind words! I'm likewise inspired by all the deep analysis that goes on with this forum, and the sharing of ideas and experiences. As for the kick timing experimentation I've started, I think that one gets better at shifting timing around over time, as new awarenesses rise seemingly without prompting or intention. I remember how sudden my perception was that my kick had suddenly synchronized itself to the same side pulling arm when that first happened--it just took time for that awareness to take hold in my consciousness. But once the awareness is there (that's the magic part for me), then it becomes relatively simple to consciously manipulate the timing, etc. I don't think I could have moved the timing so easily if that new awareness hadn't developed.

Early days yet (i.e. day 1!), but I'm keenly interested to see where this later kick takes me.
I totally agree with the idea of adding a bit of randomness to practices. I am not at that stage yet in swimming, but in general trying something new in life (sport especially) tends to cascade into a set of insights on things we are used to overlooking. The particular mutation of our routine may not be something we want to keep, but there is almost always some aspect of a change we can retain. (Yes, this is how evolution works its magic too.)
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  #43  
Old 01-09-2018
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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I believe what you are seeing is an "early pull" rather than a late kick. Tereybhas wrotten in the past about his rotator cuff injury from a car accident and by beginning his stroke early there is less force and pressure on the shoulder.

Sadly Terry can't speak for us but I feel this is an adaptation due to injury.

At the same time the early catch may keep his stroke distance longer when it's timed well so the combo of his kick and early catch creates a lot of forward movement.

I believe his timing is different on the left vs the right.
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  #44  
Old 01-09-2018
Tom Pamperin Tom Pamperin is offline
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Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
I believe what you are seeing is an "early pull" rather than a late kick. Tereybhas wrotten in the past about his rotator cuff injury from a car accident and by beginning his stroke early there is less force and pressure on the shoulder.

Sadly Terry can't speak for us but I feel this is an adaptation due to injury.

At the same time the early catch may keep his stroke distance longer when it's timed well so the combo of his kick and early catch creates a lot of forward movement.

I believe his timing is different on the left vs the right.
Coach Suzanne,

thanks for your input. The "late" kick is late only in relation to the kick timing I was using before watching timing so closely in the Freestyle Master videos. As far as I can tell, Coach Mandy, Shinji, and Terry all use similar kick timing. Terry's arm does start to drift down toward catch position earlier in the videos I've watched, but all three seem to be finishing the kick motion just as the spearing arm reaches fullest extension. I had been finishing my kick as the fingers of my spearing arm enter the water--so, kicking too early.

That said, I've noticed now that I'm adopting the later kick timing that my catch/press is happening sooner, with my stroke now moving farther away from catch-up timing. This earlier press seems to help with side-to-side balance in my stroke as I wait longer before kicking. It also seems like it is increasing my SR while maintaining or even reducing SPL. My default habit has been toward slower SR and lower SPL. I suspect I may end up with a faster SR and lower SPL once this "new" (to me) kick timing is fully incorporated into my stroke.
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  #45  
Old 01-09-2018
Tom Pamperin Tom Pamperin is offline
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Originally Posted by thaddeus.ward@gmail.com View Post
I totally agree with the idea of adding a bit of randomness to practices. I am not at that stage yet in swimming, but in general trying something new in life (sport especially) tends to cascade into a set of insights on things we are used to overlooking. The particular mutation of our routine may not be something we want to keep, but there is almost always some aspect of a change we can retain. (Yes, this is how evolution works its magic too.)
I don't think of it so much as randomness, but of being mindful of opportunities as they arise (i.e. noticing a different feel in kick timing) and of making conscious choices about what to pursue each session as the practice unfolds. I think that's what you mean, and I agree with you that it's important. I never want to be the slave of a written workout the way many swimmers I see are.

I may have a workout all "planned" in my head, but if an opportunity comes up I hadn't planned, I always tend to prioritize work on technique or body position instead of pure conditioning. For example, I've set aside my USRPT sessions to imprint the new kick timing, and am swimming relaxed continuous sets like 1650m free instead right now.

I think the bigger payoff (and most satisfaction) always comes from pursuing new sensations/new technical solutions before pursuing conditioning. And if I tried to do both at once, I'd probably not be able to hold a new focal point while facing the stress of an aerobically challenging fast set. Instead I'd get it half-right and spend a lot of time imprinting faulty technique.
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  #46  
Old 01-10-2018
Danny Danny is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
I believe what you are seeing is an "early pull" rather than a late kick. Tereybhas wrotten in the past about his rotator cuff injury from a car accident and by beginning his stroke early there is less force and pressure on the shoulder.

Sadly Terry can't speak for us but I feel this is an adaptation due to injury.

At the same time the early catch may keep his stroke distance longer when it's timed well so the combo of his kick and early catch creates a lot of forward movement.

I believe his timing is different on the left vs the right.
Suzanne, I suspected something along the lines of what you say, and I am interested in trying to imitate Terry's approach, which is quite different from the catch-up stroke I have been aiming for until now. My shoulders are also not very flexible and I have an injury on one side. In my mind, the challenge in imitating Terry's catch is how to get the arm down early without pushing down on the water. There are several things I have been playing around with
(1) spear deeper and wider than I have been doing
(2) start moving the arm down early but slowly
(2) enter the water pinkie first and keep the hand tilted pinky down until the arm is down and I am ready to use the kick to rotate. This means that I can move the arm down without exerting as much pressure on the water with my hand.

In a certain sense, this seems like the opposite of front quadrant swimming, because my goal is to set that catch early but deep without pushing water down, so, from a propulsion standpoint I am wasting that part of the stroke to a certain extent. What fascinates me about this is that, by postponing my kick and waiting for my arm to get down before kicking, my DPS actually increases, presumably because, when I do finally rotate, I have a better grip on the water and get better traction. This is all work in progress and I would be interested in any criticism you might have of what I am trying to do.
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  #47  
Old 01-10-2018
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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Hello Danny,

I'm not Suzanne. She'll add some more details surely.

Quote:
(1) spear deeper and wider than I have been doing
(2) start moving the arm down early but slowly
(3?) enter the water pinkie first and keep the hand tilted pinky down until the arm is down and I am ready to use the kick to rotate. This means that I can move the arm down without exerting as much pressure on the water with my hand.
(1) Think in his Mastery 1.0 Terry wrote, we should hold full forward extension for "...a nanosecond is enough...". (BTW that's something different from what others call TI's overgliding.) He mean full extension as what's possible without any pain. If spearing deeper is necessary by any intention (forward-backward-balance, restricted movement, FP earliest/fastest catch...) you have to be aware not adding any not needed/wanted resistance.

(2-3) That is, what you call an early start of movement, but it should become a forceless drifting-movement (depending on your pace) by itself without resistance. A continuous slice to catch the "large gymnastic ball".

Quote:
In a certain sense, this seems like the opposite of front quadrant swimming, because my goal is to set that catch early but deep without pushing water down, so, from a propulsion standpoint I am wasting that part of the stroke to a certain extent.
Hmmm... depends on what we define as FQ. If you say FQ is two arms in front, you're right. If we agree to FQ is at least one arm in front of the head, we're still swimming FQ... And we should not become rigid windmills with our arms (what some advocate for continues power apply and better propulsion, but it will break our balance and streamline of course...)

Quote:
What fascinates me about this is that, by postponing my kick and waiting for my arm to get down before kicking, my DPS actually increases, presumably because, when I do finally rotate, I have a better grip on the water and get better traction. This is all work in progress and I would be interested in any criticism you might have of what I am trying to do.
Your results are showing, you're on the right way including even more of your core-power into your stroke what your good grip allows. Don't know what should be critziced, or are you aware of breaking our foundation of Balance and Streamline anywhere in your stroke? And "work in progress" can't by definition be wrong... :-)

Great awareness and results. (Am jealous about...)

Best regards,
Werner
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  #48  
Old 01-10-2018
Danny Danny is offline
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Hi Werner,
I was back in the pool practicing this again this morning, and I would like to modify some of the things I said in my last post. First, by staying longer on my side, my recovering arm goes into the water much further in front of my head than it used to in my old style, because the shoulder remains up longer. This effectively lengthens my stroke. Previously I claimed that I was not getting any propulsion from the front part of the stroke, but I am not so sure this is true now. In any event, I think this longer reach forward before I go into the water has a lot to do with my increased DPS. Second, by spearing deeper and postponing rotation, it seems that my head is deeper in the water when I finally do kick to start the power phase of the stroke. Keeping my head down is helping to maintain my balance and horizontal position at precisely the time when it is most critical -- at this point of maximum power. I think that these two things are explaining my improved DPS. Today I was swimming at approximately the same times I had with my old style of swimming, but I dropped around 2 SPL in a 25 yd pool, which is a lot. That means that my stroke rate also dropped, but I need to concentrate when doing this because it is new. My hope is that once I have internalized it, my stroke rate can increase without losing SPL.
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  #49  
Old 01-10-2018
Tom Pamperin Tom Pamperin is offline
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Today I was swimming at approximately the same times I had with my old style of swimming, but I dropped around 2 SPL in a 25 yd pool, which is a lot. That means that my stroke rate also dropped, but I need to concentrate when doing this because it is new. My hope is that once I have internalized it, my stroke rate can increase without losing SPL.
Danny,

that's excellent! Seems like a path well worth following for you.

I've dropped 1-2 SPL as well by changing my kick timing to match the Terry/Shinji/Mandy videos.

I did try (briefly) my USRPT set yesterday, but stopped after 5 repetitions because I didn't feel solid with the kick. In another week or so maybe I'll be ready to start stressing things aerobically again.
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  #50  
Old 01-10-2018
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CoachStuartMcDougal CoachStuartMcDougal is offline
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Hey Tom,

Practice your later kick timing with fins (normal length, not the shorty's). Feel the flow starting from the pelvis travelling through the end of the fin, like a kinetic whip. Then remove and feel the same flow through pointing toes. This will imprint the new movement pattern so you can swim at the faster tempos in USRPT.

Stuart
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