Total Immersion Forums  

Go Back   Total Immersion Forums > Freestyle
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 02-12-2010
Alex-SG Alex-SG is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Dubai
Posts: 415
Alex-SG
Default WEIGHT SHIFT? Still not clear....

Can anybody explain this WEIGHT SHIFT concept to help propulsion?

I just feel I rotate from side to side...

a. What direction is the weight shift?

b. How does this weight shift fit into the overall picture (2BK, hip rotation, spearing hand...)?

c. Is it possible that by trying to shift weight from one side to the next my legs zig-zag behind the body?

Thanks. ALEX
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 02-12-2010
atreides atreides is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 293
atreides
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex-SG View Post
Can anybody explain this WEIGHT SHIFT concept to help propulsion?

I just feel I rotate from side to side...

a. What direction is the weight shift?

b. How does this weight shift fit into the overall picture (2BK, hip rotation, spearing hand...)?

c. Is it possible that by trying to shift weight from one side to the next my legs zig-zag behind the body?

Thanks. ALEX
I've been wondering the same thing. I understand the principle but execution is another thing. But the last couple of sessions I've been noticing some things. Believe or not, I've just started doing drills again. When I first started I wasn't good at them. The skating drill was a mystery to me particularly when I skated on my right side. But this time I picked it up pretty good and feel like I'm adequate on either side now.

The reason I mention this is because I really feel the benefit of the weight shift or hip rotation when I execute a single switch. I've just executed the underwater stroke to get into skate position and am moving but losing momemtum because my kick isn't that good (did I mention I don't like drills). But at that moment when I'm about to stop moving, I execute a single switch calling for me to rotate completely to the other side. If you can concentrate your rotation forward (no mean feat) on your opposite arm. you've got it.

This morning I would do the skate and switch drill and then swim a couple of laps. The first time I did it I would rotate wildly because the drill really focused me on the rotation. But later on I "widened" my tracks when I speared which seem to focus some of that rotational energy forward. I kind of felt like an inline skater (I'm not skater but if I was then this is how I picture it would feel) shifting from side to side but moving that energy forward instead of sideways.

I think that to get most of the benefit, you really have to make sure your entire body is rotating and that that energy focused on your spearing arm. I think there is a tendency to just gyrate the hips which helps a little but not as much as full body rotation. But the trick (which I have not mastered) is to get as much of that energy on your spearing arm as it moves forward. If you are over rotating, try widening your tracks. My understanding of widening your tracks is that among other things it stopped over rotating. But I don't think that is quite right. It refocuses the rotational energy forward instead of the side. The effect is to not over rotate because the energy has been redirected.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 02-12-2010
CoachEricDeSanto CoachEricDeSanto is offline
TI Coach
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 384
CoachEricDeSanto
Default

I agree with Atreides. And I want to say the same thing in a slightly different way.

1. If you are not sure how the ROTATION affects the power, try this. Put your hand on top of something tall like the refrigerator (if you are tall, find something that will allow you to be in skating with your hand on top being in catch position on the top of the fridge.) As you rotate that shoulder away from the fridge, you will feel your hand pressing on the the top of the fridge. As always, you don't have to push on it. You just have to lightly hold the arm in the catch position to feel the pressure.

2. What is the effect of the weight shift? Nothing at all unless your body is in a very clean, straight line. The straighter your body, the more prone to roll you will be. The more your body is curved, the more it resists rotation.

As I see, the rotation comes from 3 places. You kick rotates you from the back forward. Your spearing arm fall in helps from the front. And, as the arm is moving forward on the wide track, the weight of the arm helps as well. (Just to be complete, the core strength simply allows all 3 to stay connected so they add to each other.) The weight shift is the weight of the recovering arm as it falls into the spear. You really feel as if that side of your body falls into the water. If you connect the rotation as you did on the fridge, you will feel some power from that. the weight shift is subtle though. You must be relaxed to feel it.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 02-12-2010
don h don h is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 64
don h
Default alex asked about "weight shift"

alex,

i've had some thoughts about weight shift in the last few days, and they seem to be working out in the pool.

terry (i think it was terry) has mentioned the idea somewhere that you don't start back (with the pulling hand, the hand on the "low side") until the other shoulder/"high side" is "poised to fall."

this has been a very helpful concept for me lately. by practicing not starting back (on each side) until the timely moment, i noticed that by learning to control how far each shoulder "falls," i can control how far i rotate on each side. this has been a problem for me because i breathe exclusively on my right side and tend to rotate more when i "pull" with my right arm than when i "pull" with my left arm. this causes problems, perhaps the biggest one being a hurried, cramped, and, i'm sure, generally ugly recovery with my left arm.

however, by focusing on how far the high side falls each time, i seem to be getting some symmetry and consistency with rotation i haven't had before. it seems to follow that my lead hand is more consistently extending to the same spot (terry's x/y axis).

i think the weight shift i am experiencing does contribute to power and speed, but the means of contributing to power are more indirect than direct:

1. to some degree, gravity is one of the "forces" causing the high side to fall, and the body to rotate. but, in my opinion gravity only helps at least two other forces which contribute to rotation ,i.e., firing the "low side" leg in the 2bt kick, and probably some subtle (and basically unconscious) aspect of how i pull my "low side" hand and arm. however, to the extent that gravity is now contributing more to rotation, and doing so more consistently, my kick, and hands and arms, are now free to learn to contribute less to rotation, and more to forward propulsion.

2. now that, with the "help" of gravity, i am getting better symmetry and consistency with rotation, my hands and arms appear to be learning to do some other things, which are much more interesting. i feel like my upper body
is staying down in the early part of each pull, and i am staying more horizontal, and it feels faster. also, because the left arm recovery is not so hurried, i don't have to hurry in pulling with my left arm. this is promising, especially in my new, and more consistent, position to which i have rotated.

3. balance, ease, and rhythm are concepts which are hard to define. but you know them when you see them, or experience them. they seem to be getting a boost, as well.

actually, i have always wondered how rotation (and related concepts such as weight shift) can really contribute to power and speed. i still wonder. but since i seem to be swimming much better, maybe i'm on to something.

don h
burned out 61 yr old poverty lawyer
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 02-13-2010
Lawrence Lawrence is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: London, UK
Posts: 804
Lawrence
Default

I think of weight shift as that which occurs when you switch from skating one one track to skating on the other. While skating on a track, you are to an appreciable extent leaning to that side. To switch to the other side, significant rotation is required. This rotation is initiated by one beat of the two-beat kick.

The weight shift doesn't work unless your spearing arm spears at a sufficiently steep angle into the water. If you're struggling with getting the weight shifft to work, try spearing more deeply, while making sure the spearing hand enters the water on the wide track and stays there.

I'm going to start a new thread which captures this and one other point, as for me they are the secrets of making the stroke work.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 02-15-2010
Alex-SG Alex-SG is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Dubai
Posts: 415
Alex-SG
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence View Post
The weight shift doesn't work unless your spearing arm spears at a sufficiently steep angle into the water. If you're struggling with getting the weight shifft to work, try spearing more deeply, while making sure the spearing hand enters the water on the wide track and stays there..
I guess you are right. The whole idea is that rotation generates power which allows the spearing arm to pierce the water and shift the weight forward.
Let's take 2 scenarios:
a. Arm spears at 90 degrees (pointing to the bottom of the pool)
b. Arm spears at 0 degrees (straight in front parallel to the surface)

Clearly a rotating core does not contribute at all to the arm forward motion in scenario b. On the other hand a fast core rotation immediately translates into powerful arm spearing and weight shift in scenario a.

This explains why we need to spear deep and on the wide track (to get maximum power transmitted to the arm from the core rotation).

Do I make any sense? Thanks Lawrence.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 02-15-2010
atreides atreides is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 293
atreides
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex-SG View Post
I guess you are right. The whole idea is that rotation generates power which allows the spearing arm to pierce the water and shift the weight forward.
Let's take 2 scenarios:
a. Arm spears at 90 degrees (pointing to the bottom of the pool)
b. Arm spears at 0 degrees (straight in front parallel to the surface)

Clearly a rotating core does not contribute at all to the arm forward motion in scenario b. On the other hand a fast core rotation immediately translates into powerful arm spearing and weight shift in scenario a.

This explains why we need to spear deep and on the wide track (to get maximum power transmitted to the arm from the core rotation).

Do I make any sense? Thanks Lawrence.
I think deepness is based on the body type that is doing the spearing. It seems to me that the ideal scenario would be your zero degree spear because that would transmit the most energy forward. However, you can create other problems like shoulder strain and if you need buoyancy, dropped hips. By spearing at some angle into the water you end up putting less strain on your shoulder when you pull. Remember even though you are getting most of your propulsion from the rotation the shoulder must hold water as you pull though. The further out you start the catch, the greater the strain on the shoulder.

Spearing deeply will kick your legs up. But what if you are riding high already? If you look at Shinji and Terry , they seem to be spearing no deeper than 8 to 12 inches. I think each individual has to decide based on their posture in the water and the amount of strain they can tolerate on their shoulders, how deeply to spear. I started out spearing deeply and heard the usual "if you lengthened your stroke, you would be faster" comments. I have since lengthened my stroke because spearing deeply wasn't helping me stay on top of the water. My posture improved enough so that I didn't need to do it for that reason. I started experiencing tenderness in the shoulder but by widening my tracks I have dissapated a great deal of that.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 02-15-2010
Lawrence Lawrence is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: London, UK
Posts: 804
Lawrence
Default

Makes sense to me.

I hesitate over your use of the word 'fast'. The body roll needn't be rushed, just as spearing shouldn't become jabbing.

You can feel the dependence of core power/hip drive on angled spearing just by trying it, and then comparing to the case where you spear along the surface of the water.

I suspect most people instinctively think spearing more deeply means swimming more slowly. Just look at anyone in your local pool. Not so!
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 02-19-2010
Alex-SG Alex-SG is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Dubai
Posts: 415
Alex-SG
Default

So your INPUTS make me wonder if the WEIGHT SHIFT can be explained in the following way:

1. 2BK creates some forward motion
2. Hip/Core rotation generates energy for the Spearing arm
3. The Spearing arm deep entry creates additional forward motion (Weight Shift)

Point 2. implies that rotation has an indirect contribution to forward motion.

Having high elbows on recovery re-balances the body forward. I guess this is only about body position in the water and does not have anything to do with WEIGHT SHIFT...

Correct?
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 02-19-2010
RadSwim RadSwim is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 201
RadSwim
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex-SG View Post
So your INPUTS make me wonder if the WEIGHT SHIFT can be explained in the following way:

1. 2BK creates some forward motion
2. Hip/Core rotation generates energy for the Spearing arm
3. The Spearing arm deep entry creates additional forward motion (Weight Shift)

Point 2. implies that rotation has an indirect contribution to forward motion.

Having high elbows on recovery re-balances the body forward. I guess this is only about body position in the water and does not have anything to do with WEIGHT SHIFT...

Correct?
Not really. The spearing arm does not create propulsion. This is a common misconception that many swimmers pick up from TI books.

In December 2008 in the thread " Still Pushing Water Back "

http://www.totalimmersion.net/forum/...ght=propulsion

I wrote:


"swimming power comes from transmitting energy from the combined actions of kicking, rotating, and pulling to the water through your pulling hand, wrist and forearm. The concept of powering your stroke by "spearing forward" is a metaphor -- it kinda feels like that -- but it doesn't really happen that way.

The mystical part is that you can learn to optimize your pull, in part, by focusing of what your leading or "spearing" hand is doing. It's a bit like focusing on the "mystical third eye" when meditating."


Spearing is a sensation that you get when you properly coordinate you kick and core. Forward motion (propulsion) comes from the catch and pull.

RadSwim
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are Off
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 09:35 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.