Total Immersion Forums  

Go Back   Total Immersion Forums > Freestyle
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 06-08-2016
bx bx is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Bournemouth, UK
Posts: 422
bx
Default How much pressure on the catch?

I suspect I might be overdoing the gently, gently in my swimming. You still have to connect with the water to gain traction. Is there a way to gauge how much pressure you need to feel on your hand and forearm to have a viable rate of progress in the water? I think I'm stalling on every stroke.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 06-08-2016
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
Coach
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,453
CoachSuzanne
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bx View Post
I suspect I might be overdoing the gently, gently in my swimming. You still have to connect with the water to gain traction. Is there a way to gauge how much pressure you need to feel on your hand and forearm to have a viable rate of progress in the water? I think I'm stalling on every stroke.
Sure just ask yourself of pressure converts to forward speed watch th pool bottom and feel for water flow around you to correlate with pressure in the catch
__________________
Suzanne Atkinson, MD
Level 3 USAT Coach
USA Paralympic Triathlon Coach
Coach of 5 time USA Triathlon Triathlete of the Year, Kirsten Sass
Steel City Endurance, LTD
Fresh Freestyle

Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 06-08-2016
daveblt daveblt is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 820
daveblt
Default

With your fingers pointing down and the palm facing back get the feeling of your body roll to start to tug your hand back initially and not your hand .Then, nice and smooth the rest of the way. This way your gripping and not slipping .

Dave
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 06-08-2016
sclim sclim is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,499
sclim
Default

I have a kind of oblique input to this thread. 2 weeks ago, after months of frustrated "fixing" attempts I had a tremendous insight that I was botching my left hand catch for years due to incomplete left sided return roll. I worked on firming up my roll using core and kick power and resolutely delayed my catch until the roll was actually working, and suddenly the left catch, and appropriate vertical forearm position, became very clean, and soon, as I got used to harnessing it, the subsequent straight pull stroke more powerful. (See "Extra Patient Lead Hand" thread)

Ironically, once I got used to the good left catch happening more or less consistently, I noticed that the right catch, which had always been solid by comparison, now didn't look as good as I thought it was -- always accompanied by some little extraneous outward wavy flick of the hand and fingers. Tried hard to isolate it out and eliminate it, but then realised it was the same problem -- inadequate core control of the roll, so started to work on it the same way, being very strict with patient lead hand and delayed catch until my core driven roll was propelled past the mid-position. Unfortunately 7 days ago I fell off my bike and badly bruised my left rib cage -- possibly small crack, very painful.

After getting over the initial frustration and disappointment (I had planned on doing a Half IM on June 12), I'm back in the pool, hoping to start my self-rehab with gentle stroking etc. I thought this might be an opportunity to drill my efficiency, the idea being to shape my arms and body exquisitely so that even with no hard pull available, I would test my ability to streamline to get speed rather than power through. Sort of TI idea but pushed to ridiculous extreme, due to necessity.

I'm not sure it's working. For sure, when I'm fresh, I can get my left core driven roll mojo working nicely still, and my quiet left catch is still there, like magic, and I can do a modestly powerful pull, and it's very gratifyingly effective. However, my right roll is still suspect -- no worse than before, but still with that annoyingly imperfect catch. But for some reason, a powerful right sided pull hurts my left rib injury more than the equivalent left sided pull, so I can't really pull effectively on the right, or only very gently. Something to do with diagonally bracing the rib cage to transfer the pulling motion to the trunk.

Also, unfortunately, a lot of the core driven trunk stabilisation movements hurt my left rib injury. For instance really reaching and stretching with either lead hand hurts. Likely because I'm extending my thoracic spine, and the accompanying rib movements hurt. (I get the same pain when I'm stretched out on the aero bars and I fully extend my spine and neck to get a good view down the road -- it's likely part of the same movement).

So I'm getting a limited insight as to how to swim fast without using a lot of catch and pull power, a partial success to my initial hope, I guess, but it's overshadowed by some inability to tighten my core, defeating a lot of the underlying purposes, as well as quite a bit of distraction by the pain taking away from my learning process.

Last edited by sclim : 06-08-2016 at 09:11 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 06-09-2016
Tom Pamperin Tom Pamperin is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 712
Tom Pamperin
Default

sclim,

I'm sorry to hear of your injury--best wishes for a speedy recovery. I've been finding your recent posts about your progress inspiring. It seems we both feel like we've made significant discoveries lately.

My next task is to bring some intensity and tempo work to my sessions to see if I can do things right as I work harder.
__________________
Tom
www.tompamperin.com
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 06-09-2016
sclim sclim is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,499
sclim
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Pamperin View Post
sclim,

I'm sorry to hear of your injury--best wishes for a speedy recovery. I've been finding your recent posts about your progress inspiring. It seems we both feel like we've made significant discoveries lately.

My next task is to bring some intensity and tempo work to my sessions to see if I can do things right as I work harder.
Likewise, I find your detailed problem analysis, solution proposals and rationalising, follow through and result analysis very inspiring, even if your level is so much more advanced than mine ("at the moment" lol).

Your approach, which is largely that of standard TI, but not entirely in blind faith, seems to be parallel to mine -- spending a lot of time working on stroke refinement at stroke rates and SPL counts lower than what you would normally use in competition, and seems to be very productive. This is very encouraging to someone like me who recognises that he doesn't necessarily have a solid grasp of basic skills yet, but yet can see that even at a higher skill level, it is still ultimately productive sometimes to take what others might see as a step backwards and "work on being slow" to get fast.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 06-09-2016
bx bx is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Bournemouth, UK
Posts: 422
bx
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by daveblt View Post
With your fingers pointing down and the palm facing back get the feeling of your body roll to start to tug your hand back initially and not your hand .Then, nice and smooth the rest of the way. This way your gripping and not slipping .
Dave
I was struggling to get this feeling, then towards the end of my swim today I rediscovered (for probably the 100th time) that keeping the lead arm's lat engaged, whilst still keeping the elbow "soft", is the key to getting this connection. It felt good. The trick will be to remember this for at least 6 months whilst it becomes permanent.


Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
Sure just ask yourself of pressure converts to forward speed watch th pool bottom and feel for water flow around you to correlate with pressure in the catch
A pragmatic and useable answer. Thanks!
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 06-10-2016
sclim sclim is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,499
sclim
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by daveblt View Post
With your fingers pointing down and the palm facing back get the feeling of your body roll to start to tug your hand back initially and not your hand .Then, nice and smooth the rest of the way. This way your gripping and not slipping .

Dave
Could you edit this to clarify it a bit more. I think there is something hugely important in what you're saying, and I'd like to walk through it in my head and "pool imagination" and then "pool rehearsal" so I can get it too.

Last edited by sclim : 06-10-2016 at 11:46 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 06-10-2016
sclim sclim is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,499
sclim
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bx View Post
I was struggling to get this feeling, then towards the end of my swim today I rediscovered (for probably the 100th time) that keeping the lead arm's lat engaged, whilst still keeping the elbow "soft", is the key to getting this connection. It felt good. The trick will be to remember this for at least 6 months whilst it becomes permanent.
OK, I want to try thinking about that detail, too.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 06-11-2016
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,898
Zenturtle
Default

You can almost set as much pressure on the catch as you want if you have taken the patient lead hands time to set up your catch, and then wrestle your body over it .
Even if your paddle doesnt collapse, it will slip more at higher pressure, but you will get more forward progress from it.
More arm pressure just has to be in proportion with more body torqe around that anchor to keep all the bodyparts in sync.
Roll and pull have to move like geared parts. ( in your delayed catch the gears only have slipped a tooth). Just like all leg and arm connected movements as walking , throwing a ball, skiing, skating, crawling, rowing,etc.
You can add more pressure between hand and ball when throwing harder, but at the same time the pressure between foot and ground has to increase with the same relative amount.
If ball throwers are placed in the water they only can throw half as far. Their starting foundation isnt solid anymore.
An anchored leg can be a big help in supporting the anchoring arm.
Its not only the arm thats set up for the catch, also the leg has te be set up at the same time. Than they can be released together, givng the big bang.
See all the pictures I posted in your patient lead arm thread.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 06-11-2016 at 12:25 AM.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are Off
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 02:57 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.