Stable elbow. aim your pinky, follow your pinky

[Zenturtle]

A little trick for keeping the elbow stable and high while extending forward.

Imagine aiming with a rifle.
You hold the rifle at your shoulder, look over the barrel to your target and aim with the little point at the end of the barrel towards to your target.

Now do the same on dryland without a rifle.
Lift your arm, and aim your arm to your target. Look over your arm like you are looking over the barrel of a rifle. Your arm is the barrel of the rifle.
Now try the difference between using your thumb as the aiming point of the barrel, and using your pointing pinky as the top aiming point of the barrel.
When using your pinky, your elbow rotates up, and you have the arm in the right position for the catch that follows upon extension.
When swimming, aim your pinky to the low end of the other wall of the pool while extending your shoulder forward.

BUt... keep your hand flat while extending, no thumbs down.
Just make your pinky the extension of your outside lower arm, Making one line from the point of your elbow to end of your pinky. Have your pinky at the top of your arm as a barrel.

Its a variation on Daves 10 degree trick. Some things work better for some people. I like this one.

Example:
Pieter van den Hoogenband.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzlmEkw5vM0
(1 min 48 to 1 min 52)

[daveblt]

So in other words, extend in to the water with your thumb down ? I prefer the opposite ,external shoulder rotation .It seems swimming repeatedly with internal rotation means the shoulder and arm will always be under tension and can do shoulder damage over time ? When I swim this way my arm feels free and relaxed plus with the little finger pitched slightly down it does not give me the chance to lean in on my palm to help for balance .It feels that my arm easily floats out and extends better .

Dave

Originally Posted by daveblt

So in other words, extend in to the water with your thumb down ? I prefer the opposite ,external shoulder rotation .It seems swimming repeatedly with internal rotation means the shoulder and arm will always be under tension and can do shoulder damage over time ? When I swim this way my arm feels free and relaxed plus with the little finger pitched slightly down it does not give me the chance to lean in on my palm to help for balance .It feels that my arm easily floats out and extends better .

Dave

I think he is saying extend flat but at peak extention rotate pinky slightly high so its uppermost (about 10 degrees to flat palm)

This is the same as pitching thumb down 10 degrees as in te "10 degree trick" but doesnt promote extending with thumbs down

btw i dont recommend extending thumbs down it bloody hurts after a while

like anything dont take it to extremes 10 degrees is enough to get the elbow on top i think there does need to be a little lean on the palm base to have something to press agaimt to rotate the elbow up.

pinky down seems to result in the elbow dropping under? at some point you need to flip the hand forearm?

[daveblt]

Originally Posted by Mushroomfloat

I think he is saying extend flat but at peak extention rotate pinky slightly high so its uppermost (about 10 degrees to flat palm)

This is the same as pitching thumb down 10 degrees as in te "10 degree trick" but doesnt promote extending with thumbs down

btw i dont recommend extending thumbs down it bloody hurts after a while

like anything dont take it to extremes 10 degrees is enough to get the elbow on top i think there does need to be a little lean on the palm base to have something to press agaimt to rotate the elbow up.

pinky down seems to result in the elbow dropping under? at some point you need to flip the hand forearm?

I think the dropping of the elbow shouldn't be a problem if the pinky is rotated just slightly down along with a downward slope of the extended arm followed by a gradual palm facing directly back as you begin the pull, but I guess you have to find what works best for you .My stroke just feels better if I extend this way and my balance actually feels better because I have no choice but to lean in and balance with my whole body with weightless hands under no tension.

Dave

[Zenturtle]

You can also imagine someone is pulling you forward on your pinky.
In my case, the elbow rotates 45 degrees up compared to having the arm just relaxed. It works best if the hand is indeed about 10 degrees tilted, pinky being just the must upper finger, but like I said this is not thumbs down.
Its differnt than imagining someone is pulling you forward on your index finger I think.

I like pinky down, but more for getting into the catch phase.

pinky down to catch phase (Ferry Weertman):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPjg1AexohE

Its a case of personal preference with these details. Not the most important things, but still fun to play with.

Originally Posted by daveblt

I think the dropping of the elbow shouldn't be a problem if the pinky is rotated just slightly down along with a downward slope of the extended arm followed by a gradual palm facing directly back as you begin the pull, but I guess you have to find what works best for you .My stroke just feels better if I extend this way and my balance actually feels better because I have no choice but to lean in and balance with my whole body with weightless hands under no tension.

Dave

Thanks i'll give the weightless hands tip a try tommorow, i think i know what you mean

[gary p]

Originally Posted by Zenturtle

I like pinky down, but more for getting into the catch phase.

pinky down to catch phase (Ferry Weertman):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPjg1AexohE

I'm definitely a pinky-down-at-the-catch kind of guy

[WFEGb]

Helo ZT,

...BUt... keep your hand flat while extending, no thumbs down.
Just make your pinky the extension of your outside lower arm, Making one line from the point of your elbow to end of your pinky. Have your pinky at the top of your arm as a barrel.

Its a variation on Daves 10 degree trick. Some things work better for some people. I like this one.

Example:
Pieter van den Hoogenband...

Think that can be seen in Shinji's earlier videos sometimes, and might be the same as his(?) recommendation to spear with index-finger in line with the inner lower arm. Undoubtedly some things work better for some people... but I'm not sure of this more of (in this case) needed tension in our hand really is necessary.

And I'm not sure, if Hogenbrand's pinky down not is result of his hollow back swimming and a fairly near to body "rail" for hand moving back to get his leverages as optimal as possible.

Also I'm not really convinced with the words of a floating arm, because one of my students lays on it to "feel it float", or he spears upwards where he "felt the float" better... So I'm more on what we had discussed some time ago: Don't feel any pressure(-difference) around or on any part of arm while spearing and drifting to catch... OK, when doing so we have to give up Terry's idea using the speared arm as additional flap to assist horizontal bodylineand legs up...

Seems one thing more to weigh and decide individual and most healthy best...

Best regards,
Werner

[Zenturtle]

Not much wrong with a neutral pressure hand entry.
The path of the hand/arm ia combination of rotation and forward speed, which results in a helix, screwlike path. At slow forwards speed the neutral pitch of the screwlike path is low, steep angle. At high speed the pitch of the screw is high, with a shallower spear angle. Everybody happy!