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  #1  
Old 04-14-2018
sclim sclim is offline
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sclim
Default Should Early VERTICAL be Early PERPENDICULAR Forearm? >> Rotation/Catch/Kick Variants

I am surprised this question didn't occur to me earlier.

Like so many struggling senior swimmers I have been trying to make my peace with the limitation of my limited shoulder internal rotation which makes it impossible to achieve the magical Early Vertical Forearm catch which elite swimmers demonstrate and which looks so painful to emulate (and indeed it is painful to try!)

I am repeatedly reassured by the various coaches on this forum that strict EVF is unnecessary, and that "sort of" vertical is good enough. Indeed, looking at Terry's video demonstrations, he achieves his legendary efficiency and ease with a forearm that really is quite far from vertical.

Nevertheless, the theoretical principal is unavoidable that a moving paddle (i.e. the forearm) whose plane is not perpendicular to the direction of movement will allow fluid fluid to slip along the non-perpendicular plane. That is why the early Vertical Forearm early in the catch is advocated. So I try to get as vertical as I can, which is not very vertical when my elbow is ahead of my body, as it would be immediately following the spearing phase. Keeping the spear wide helps, as this position allows a more vertical angulation with the same degree of limited internal rotation.

However, when turning over the various options in my head to get more perpendicular positioning of the forearm, I suddenly realized that perpendicular does not necessarily mean vertical. That is to say, with my elbow at that same ahead-of-body position that allows only limited forearm verticality (with my limited shoulder rotation) when catching, I can still flex my elbow and achieve better perpendicularity if I allow the hand to swing in an arc that is more obliquely inward, i.e. toward the midline before I allow my whole arm to pull. With my lack of flexibility the hand actually reaches the midline before the forearm is perpendicular to the direction of travel. Seen from the front the angle of my forearm would not be vertical so much as oblique, way less than 45 degrees, in fact. I notice that in his videos Terry's forearm comes inward somewhat similarly, though not as much as I am describing, before his whole arm movement starts.

As my whole arm sweeps past my trunk and my elbow passes my head, I notice I have more shoulder rotation room, and my forearm can get more vertical, so indeed it can move to verticality during the stroke.

So is this a reasonable way of getting forearm perpendicularity in the catch before the whole arm is allowed to move (or from the other perspective, to anchor as the body is pulled past)?

I see that the hand will then trace out an exaggerated "hourglass" path that we are expressly told not to do, so maybe that is my answer. But I would like an explanation from an expert why that will not work so well, even though the "perpendicular" aspect of the forearm paddle in the catch is better achieved in this way (given one's limited shoulder rotation).

Last edited by sclim : 05-22-2018 at 11:03 PM. Reason: Topic of replies has drifted
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  #2  
Old 04-14-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
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Gary Hall snr has a different take on evf

He says it is actually for reducing drag by pulling the arm up higher and not having it down deep

So IMO a slightly angled evf will still give drag reduction properties the same as an extreme vertical paddle.

Try it in the pool you will notice a big difference in streamline with arm deeper v with the elbow up high through the "pull"

i'll get the vid and post it
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  #3  
Old 04-14-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
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Here:

https://youtu.be/wRN4AAT8XaE
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  #4  
Old 04-14-2018
sclim sclim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mushroomfloat View Post
OK; I've heard this before, and only vaguely understood it, but his detailed explanation of drag at the hand = 0 and drag of the (perpendicular and vertical) upper arm near the shoulder = maximum, and pro-rata for points in between for the first time made sense to me. Now I have a better basis for analyzing the drag versus propulsive force compromise.
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  #5  
Old 04-14-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
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Yes it is a very good demonstration.

I thought it was all about catching and pulling / holding more water but as he points out its not the most powerful position (which is lower with a straighter arm under the body.

But as he says drag trumps power so the weaker evf position is more drag co efficient.
(and less tiring are also mentions)
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  #6  
Old 04-14-2018
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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Hello Sclim,

there is a short video from (Master)Coach David Cameron about the HEC, where he demonstrates the TI-point of view.

Last but not least we should think more about Terry's: Don't move water around, move your body forward. A good/ergonomic lever will be helpful, as much drag as possible will be helpful too, but if both are just used to move water around in vortex and whirl, we're simply "wasting" energy. So the miracle of the individual best catch and press (I think) will be that one, where we will feel the greatest ball of water behind our arm against which we can press ourself forward without disturbing the ball/water or only in least manner. And we can only achieve that with the simple - or better the much more difficult thing: We have to find the very best feeling for the water to become able to do so.

Best regards,
Werner
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  #7  
Old 04-14-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
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Yes,

"Plant one arm & swing your body around it"

Like planting one arm in wet cement and using it to pull the recovering arm up & over ;-)

Which is the secret to this:
https://youtu.be/rCga-UiIjSA

Arguably the best freestyle ever seen.
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  #8  
Old 04-16-2018
sclim sclim is offline
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sclim
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WFEGb View Post
Hello Sclim,

there is a short video from (Master)Coach David Cameron about the HEC, where he demonstrates the TI-point of view.

Last but not least we should think more about Terry's: Don't move water around, move your body forward. A good/ergonomic lever will be helpful, as much drag as possible will be helpful too, but if both are just used to move water around in vortex and whirl, we're simply "wasting" energy. So the miracle of the individual best catch and press (I think) will be that one, where we will feel the greatest ball of water behind our arm against which we can press ourself forward without disturbing the ball/water or only in least manner. And we can only achieve that with the simple - or better the much more difficult thing: We have to find the very best feeling for the water to become able to do so.

Best regards,
Werner
As you may deduce from the direction of my questioning, I have a very poor sense of "feel" so far, and I was hoping to find "by the numbers" the most efficient forearm paddle orientation, and even some clue as to the complete arm trajectory that gives the "best grab of the ball of water" with the minimum of disruption of that ball during the grab and after it is let go, as well as the minimum of drag of those parts of the arm that are unavoidably exposed to frontal drag.

The more I reflect upon the complexity of the factors, the changing pluses and minuses of forces in real time as the stroke goes through its cycle, I realize the unavoidable truth of what you are saying -- the only way to develop an efficient (non-energy wasting) stroke, and to arrive at your own most efficient stroke is to monitor your constant various micro-experimentational changes in hand and arm angle and positioning in real time by feel. So there is no alternative except to develop this feel.

I have been trying to expose myself to this feel. Sometimes as I initiate the catch at the hand I think I can get a glimpse of this feel on my fingers and palm, and if I am diligent and lucky, sometimes this feel of a heavy ball of water expands to a more tangible resistance on my forearm as I anchor the mid-stroke. So I think I just have to be more diligent in my attempts at sensitivity.
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  #9  
Old 04-16-2018
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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WFEGb
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Hello Sclim,

in his 2.0 Mastery Terry spends the first chapter to These things fairly detailed, but it will take huge parts of our patience to find improvements to our feeling for the water. The picture of the ball of water (and working with a real gym-ball) as using fistgloves (till ow never tried myself) and stroking with fists are main parts of Terry's way to learn...

My last pooltime (we only meet one three times a year) together with a former (high!) competition swimmer, I asked her: How do you get your extremely variable speed with same movement-tempo from?

Her answer: I'm getting a harder hook in the water...

Me: How do you do that?

She: Feeling for the water...

She's not in TI and I couldn't convince her, that TI-drills are best for just that. She said: Do other things than Swimming. Play in and with the water to get this Feelings on an other way.

She showed me two very funny things as example: Swimming FS just above the ground. (Really the whole movements included recovery movements(!), not spearswitches); and swimming frog-like backstroke also just above the ground...

Since long I swallowed half of the pool through my nose, and we had some heavy laughs together....

Best regards,
Werner
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  #10  
Old 04-16-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
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I think people (me included) lose sight of the fact that we are supposed to be "Crawling" ie "front crawl"

Too much focus on a HEC / EVF on this side and a superman spear on the other and the connection throught the body via rotation is lost.

Sometimes its better to throw all that out the window and relax into a "Crawl" like your crawling over a massive sand dune on your belly, you ain't gonna use a dainty hand paddle are you? your gonna claw that beast like your holding a fat grapefruit in each palm.
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