Total Immersion Forums  

Go Back   Total Immersion Forums > Freestyle
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old 05-12-2018
woodwards26 woodwards26 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Crewe uk
Posts: 27
woodwards26
Default The timing and mechanics are different

Ocean walker is driven entirely by the core with no driving of the front arm forward or using the weight of the arm. The arms spear deeper and the pull is done later .The shoulders are completetely disengaged .
I like others thought it looks just like TI or a derivative of it but now having done both at several lessons / camps it is different mechanics.
Itís highly likely that anyone that loves TI will also love OCean Walker too but it will need a couple of camps and a few months practise to make the changes to get the timing and mechanics embedded.
Terry said it best when he said TI was a friend of Ocean Walker or something similar. So a friend rather than cousin is my take.
Both give a great feeling when you swim with less effort
__________________
Everything is won or lost inside your own head.

Nothing can stop a person with the right attitude; nothing can help a person with the wrong attitude
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 05-12-2018
sclim sclim is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,499
sclim
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by woodwards26 View Post
Ocean walker is driven entirely by the core with no driving of the front arm forward or using the weight of the arm. The arms spear deeper and the pull is done later .The shoulders are completetely disengaged .
I like others thought it looks just like TI or a derivative of it but now having done both at several lessons / camps it is different mechanics.
It’s highly likely that anyone that loves TI will also love OCean Walker too but it will need a couple of camps and a few months practise to make the changes to get the timing and mechanics embedded.
Terry said it best when he said TI was a friend of Ocean Walker or something similar. So a friend rather than cousin is my take.
Both give a great feeling when you swim with less effort
So, how is it "different mechanics?". Is the shared common concept of core derived rotation and drive the only thing? The arm drive and traction is done with a minimum of upper body tension? but there has to be some residual tension, or else the core power would not be transmitted. So the difference is only one of degree, right?
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 05-12-2018
CoachStuartMcDougal's Avatar
CoachStuartMcDougal CoachStuartMcDougal is offline
coach
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,353
CoachStuartMcDougal
Default

Hi Woodward,

Yeah - Ocean Walker came to TI after he blew up his bicep and then transformed his stroke to core driven rather than shoulder driven. Although his Ocean's Seven is a terrific achievement, I have always found it odd that he never gave any credit to TI or Terry Laughlin - some insecurity there. TI has refined the process and progression over the years where Adam is still using drills that are very 10 years ago. Still effective, but no refinement in process and progression - a coaching plateau. But that's what happens when you are solo and not part of a much larger coaching team that discover and share new methods, refinements and progressions that help swimmers become their best swimmer and their own best coach too.

Adding a couple of videos here too:

Adam with Terry at UK Triathlon conference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWggC1wAVP8

Terry's TI Demo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hC8ZZZhabp4

Watching these videos, really miss Terry - a gentle spirit that brought out the best in everyone he came in contact with. He's done so much for so many over the decades without the recognition he deserved. But Terry was never in this for recognition, only to help those discover their unlimited potential developing the swimmer and the person too.

Stu
mindbodyandswim.com

Last edited by CoachStuartMcDougal : 05-12-2018 at 07:46 PM. Reason: added vidoes
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 05-12-2018
Danny Danny is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,442
Danny
Default

Stuart,

Watching Terry's TI demo for the millionth time I am always struck by how slow he seems to be stroking, so this time I timed him at the beginning. It seems like he is swimming at a stroke rate somewhere between 1.3 and 1.4 s. Shortly after the start of this film they go into slow motion and it becomes hard to tell, but I believe the beginning is in real time. Was he swimming this slow only for demo purposes, or was this his "comfortable" rate?
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 05-12-2018
Tom Pamperin Tom Pamperin is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 712
Tom Pamperin
Default

I miss Terry and I never even met him in person--but he was always very generous and encouraging when we corresponded, and I credit him with changing my life, not just how I swim. Watching the TI Demo video is interesting--thanks for posting it. Here's what I see:

1. So relaxed, and such easy, fluid movements. Seems like a lot admiration is expressed online for Shinji's stroke, and not so much for Terry's videos. But he is clearly a masterful swimmer, and beautiful to watch.

2. Lots of widely splayed leg in the kick. I believe later videos show more refinement here, especially through the Freestyle Mastery lessons on 2BK. Which just goes to show that Terry, and the TI system in general, really is a living, evolving system--a true meritocracy of what works. Kaizen in action.

3. I am reassured that my exploration of 2BK timing has been going in the right direction. Notice how late Terry's kick finishes in the Demo video. The finish of the kick is right about at the finish of the same-side (underwater) arm's pressing motion. The kick starts about the same time as the same-side (underwater) arm is passing the shoulder. This is a MUCH later kick than I had started with. And I believe that later timing is crucial to good core-driven propulsion.

4. Going along with #3, I'm also reassured that my recent focus on the timing of the arms is correct as well. Notice in the Demo that by the time Terry's spearing arm is wrist deep, the underwater (pressing) arm has already drifted down and back so that it is nearly even with the shoulder. It is in a strong position to begin the pressing motion. This is MUCH farther away from catch-up timing, and closer to a windmill timing. There is very little time--just the briefest of pauses--where the lead arm is held motionless at full extension. I believe this arm timing is also crucial, leading to less acceleration/deceleration in the stroke, and more efficient, continuous propulsion.

That first movement where the lead arm drifts down and back into the catch is a slow feeling process looking for thick water. Then, as the spearing arm enters wrist deep, good grip and propulsion can happen in coordination with the kick and rotation. The body rotation happens much later in the stroke than I had been doing--all at once with full extension of spearing arm, AND firing of the 2BK.

I am really happy with how this is all going in my stroke right now, and I encourage everyone to do a self-assessment of your own timing--both arms and 2BK. It is really paying off for me.
__________________
Tom
www.tompamperin.com
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 05-13-2018
CoachStuartMcDougal's Avatar
CoachStuartMcDougal CoachStuartMcDougal is offline
coach
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,353
CoachStuartMcDougal
Default

Hey Danny:
Yes - Terry's swimming a loping 1.4 sec tempo or 43 spm - good observation. This was demo speed, but I know he enjoyed swimming at slower tempos in complete focus and would still swim very fast, faster than most lap swimmers. See 3:00 ish in video, at 43 spm he's pulling away from swimmer in lane to his left with a tempo around 70spm.

Terry's OW race tempo was around 60-65 spm. See his 2006 Masters World Championship swim in SF Bay, forward to 0:55: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5kTKpKFbXk Also an informative video to watch start to finish.

Hey Tom:
Re: Closer to windmill vs catch up. This is front quadrant timing, both arms are in water in front of head when transition or switch to opposite edge triggers. Some swimmers will transition a little sooner, others a little later - but the transition is front. The front quadrant is the lower quarter in the water. In a side view of a swimmer, draw a vertical line through the shoulders, then a horizontal line through head-spine; the lower front 90 deg quarter is the "front quadrant". This transition allows swimmers to access the big muscles of the core, lats and glutes and takes pressure off of the weak/injury prone shoulders. "Power from the pelvis" :-)

Happy you got to correspond with Terry, he was very generous with his time no matter how busy he was, and even more generous in person. Like you, he certainly changed my life, Coach Mandy and everyone that had the opportunity to be coached by Terry directly or indirectly, that certainly includes Adam Walker too.

Stu
mindbodyandswim.com
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 05-13-2018
Tom Pamperin Tom Pamperin is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 712
Tom Pamperin
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal View Post
Hey Tom:
Re: Closer to windmill vs catch up. This is front quadrant timing, both arms are in water in front of head when transition or switch to opposite edge triggers. Some swimmers will transition a little sooner, others a little later - but the transition is front. The front quadrant is the lower quarter in the water. In a side view of a swimmer, draw a vertical line through the shoulders, then a horizontal line through head-spine; the lower front 90 deg quarter is the "front quadrant". This transition allows swimmers to access the big muscles of the core, lats and glutes and takes pressure off of the weak/injury prone shoulders. "Power from the pelvis" :-)
Yep, I agree completely. In the past 6 months I have come to the conclusion that my stroke before exploring my 2BK and arm timing was too close to a catch-up timing to be effective--and I never found that out until I really analyzed the timing in some of Terry's videos. I'm certainly not advocating a NON-front quadrant timing; I have simply come to a better understanding of what that means.

So, that may not be a big revelation to other TI swimmers--it was for me, though!

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal View Post
Happy you got to correspond with Terry, he was very generous with his time no matter how busy he was, and even more generous in person.
That is certainly the impression I got. I wish I had taken time to meet him in person, but I'm grateful for all his work with TI through the years.
__________________
Tom
www.tompamperin.com
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 05-14-2018
liolio
 
Posts: n/a
Default

For the reference it would be interesting to have his time on a 1500 in door while staying true to his long distance technique.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 05-23-2018
woodwards26 woodwards26 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Crewe uk
Posts: 27
woodwards26
Default Loved the videos

Thanks Stuart though Iíve seen before itís a thrill to be reminded of them. I was coached by Ian Smith for over a year before his sad passing and more recently by Jai and I love everything TI stands for they both taught me as an adult learner starting to swim at 57 ( now 65) a lot about moving through water .
I was at the Tri show when it came to Manchester later that same year it seems every swim technique was represented in the endless pools.
I was blessed with meeting Terry and he was genuinely interested in my swimming and we exchanged a few e mails it was heart breaking news to read he had passed away.
JohnW
__________________
Everything is won or lost inside your own head.

Nothing can stop a person with the right attitude; nothing can help a person with the wrong attitude
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 05-23-2018
paul2121
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Hi woody, nice to see you online again chatting about swimming.

I am trying to teach a 73 year old tennis buddy to do the crawl and I rely heavily on T.I principles. Getting the body balance is the key isn''t it? It is so difficult to master though.

I avidly read the Total Immersion forum but prefer to work on www.theswimforum.palstani.com. "Training Bregor" is the thread about my friend.

Luckily the argumentative and deeply troubled "nightcrawler" is no longer there.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are Off
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 09:37 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.