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  #231  
Old 02-21-2017
Danny Danny is offline
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Hi Stuart,

I will be playing around to see how fast I can pick up my stroke rate. I have been working at these things for some years now, and this is something I have tried to do in the past. The new thing I am trying now is to use the TT to maintain close control over my stroke rate. The danger I have encountered in the past is that I wind up increasing my stroke rate to compensate for some bad habits that are causing me to lose DPS, but by carefully controlling what I am doing with the TT, I hope to be able to see exactly if and when this starts to occur and focus on correcting the problem instead of increasing my stroke rate to cover it up.

I'm looking forward to getting back in the pool to experiment with all of this! Thanks again!
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  #232  
Old 02-22-2017
s.sciame s.sciame is offline
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Hey Danny, today I did the following set you may like to try (it seems an endurance set but in fact it's more about neural threshold development):

SCM - 10 rounds of the following (with TT):
12x25m resting 7 beeps (ie less than 7s at the rates I swam).

The goal was not to exceed 20SPL, which is my favourite stroke count for anything from steady swimming to sprints. I started at 61SPM (you could start at your comfortable SR) and increased cadence by 1SPM every round. I also added some additional rest at the end of each round to have the time to change TT settings and refocus (the interval was 6:00 for each round).

I started at 19SPL/61SPM and kept the same SPL up to the 5th round (65SPM). In the middle of the 6th round (66SPM) I started hitting 20SPL. Kept steady 20SPL up to the 8th round and toward the end of the 9th round (69SPM) I started hitting 21SPL. So I reverted to 65SPM for the last round and did it at 20SPL.

As I said, the set was not particularly taxing from an aerobical standpoint (heart rate was 130 at the end of the 3k), but I felt pretty tired in the end, perhaps because of the "neural challenge".

Give it a try if you liked it,
Salvo
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  #233  
Old 02-23-2017
Danny Danny is offline
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Hi Salvo,

Thanks for the suggestion. I have tried sets similar to the one you mentioned and I always found them quite stressful, not just from the physical side but because the mental burden of keeping track of stroke count, TT and progressions starts to become more than my small pinhead can handle. Eventually I got the sense that I was paying more attention to the tempo trainer than I was to my swimming. So I have given up on this sort of strategy. On the other hand, if I just choose a setting for the TT and leave it there for 300 m of continuous swimming, that doesn't stress me out as much.

My goal right now is to imprint a forward spear without any hesitation, and I have decided that I should ignore stroke count for a while until I have taught myself the focal point. I will be playing around with different stroke rates to see how high I can make the stroke rate and still feel comfortable, but for now I will be ignoring the SPL until I feel comfortable with all of this.
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  #234  
Old 02-23-2017
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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didnt you try to swim with weights on your arm in the past?

if you let the arm drop in like a heavy weight and steer it a bit towards your imagined target point under water it should work ok.
The reaching starts as your hand breaks the water surface.
Make it fun to break the water surface by thrashing the arm through it, trying to manipulate the amount of splash when the weight falls through it.
Angling the hand 10-20 degrees down relative to arm helps a lot.
Lifting your shoulder over your normal relaxed shoulder point too.
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  #235  
Old 02-23-2017
Danny Danny is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
didnt you try to swim with weights on your arm in the past?

if you let the arm drop in like a heavy weight and steer it a bit towards your imagined target point under water it should work ok.
The reaching starts as your hand breaks the water surface.
Make it fun to break the water surface by thrashing the arm through it, trying to manipulate the amount of splash when the weight falls through it.
Angling the hand 10-20 degrees down relative to arm helps a lot.
Lifting your shoulder over your normal relaxed shoulder point too.
ZT, the weights weren't on my arm, I held them in my hands. This was one of my many previous brainstorming attempts that didn't really work out. (An ugly flower?) One of the things I noticed the last time I tried Boomer's advice was that I had previously been angling the forward momentum too deep in the spear and things got better when I focused on throwing the arm forward as opposed to downward with my shoulder. Also keeping a wide entry point. All of the things you mention above can be played around with while swimming. Of course, I have no idea what 10-20 degrees is, when I am swimming, but I go by feeling. The most important part of this is to get my whole body involved, not just the shoulders.
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  #236  
Old 02-23-2017
Danny Danny is offline
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Stuart,

Today I started out by swimming a bunch of 50m distances and slowly increasing the stroke rate from 1.3 s/stroke down to 1.0 s/stroke. As I approached 1.0 s, I was having trouble keeping my hips in sync with my spearing arm. I seem to have lazy hips. So I turned the TT back up to 1.1s and swam 300 m. This was hard for me, so in successive 300 m intervals I kept turning up the TT to slower and slower rates. On my 5th interval I was at 1.3 s, and I remember feeling that I was getting a little ahead of the beeps, and I was thinking about increasing the stroke rate slightly on the next interval. But then I got a foot cramp. This usually happens when I am using my kicking to correct for errors in body position, and I think that all of the speed work I was doing today started to take its toll. As I said, I seem to have lazy hips, and I was probably doing too much work with my kick to keep my hips in sync with my spearing, so this led to the cramps.

On my last interval I turned off the TT and just swam at a slow enough pace so that my hips and shoulders could stay in sync without bringing on the cramps. I wanted to end with a lap of butterfly, but I only made it halfway down the lane, before the cramps set in again.

I was prepared for a bad day at work today after all of this work, but it's evening now and I haven't fallen asleep at my desk. Now that I have a better idea of what stroke rates I can maintain, I will try to back off somewhat next time and aim at something that won't give me cramps when I am done. This was "no workout for old men".
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  #237  
Old 02-24-2017
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CoachStuartMcDougal CoachStuartMcDougal is offline
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Hi Danny,

That's great to hear - nice work! The cramps are likely triggered from tension or unreleased tension swimming at faster tempos - really anything out of comfort zone can cause tension. As you get more comfortable with faster tempos, tension will ease and cramps should begin to subside.

Keep up the good work!

Stuart
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  #238  
Old 02-24-2017
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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The drag paradox of wide shoulders.

It seems not advantagous to have wide shoulders if you strive for mininal drag with a minimal drag surface.
But wide shoulders are ususally an advantage for a swimmer because:

- with enough flexibility the shoulder can be rotated/shifted forward lengtening the vessel. The shoulder doesnt stick out at the side, but is placed before the body, lifting the armpit almost to eye level, and taking the arm along to make a longer vessel.
-wide shoulders make for a longer lever between the shoulderjoints, so its possible to walk with the foundation of the arm with bigger strides, making longer effective strokes.
More walking range of the shoulderjoint means more power supplied by the trunk, and less from the arms.
- wide shoulders give more room for the attached muscles from shoulders to spine and hips.


Pals reach:




In motion:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRj8q7hlWjss

Still, females usally have a lower drag value compared to males.
They usually come to a different solution of the swim puzzle.

Some research produced results in line with this little theory.
We have found some significant correlations with the 200 meters IM performance and flexibility measures in males, such as foot plantar flexion and trunk extension. Although the association values were weak, these results agree with the data presented in the literature. The study of Saavedra (2002) presents a significant correlation with trunk flexion (r = 0.294, p < 0.05). Rama and Alves (2004) confirmed this association (r = 0.207, p < 0.19) and found also an association with the shoulder flexion (r = 0.272, p < 0.37). The absence of significant associations in the females is confirmed by the results of the abovementioned studies. On the other hand, the study of Geladas et al. (2005) presents significant associations between shoulder flexibility and performance in 100 m FC in both genders. However, the degree of association was considerably lower in girls, compared with boys.

https://www.thefreelibrary.com/The+u...e.-a0168872768

Last edited by Zenturtle : 02-26-2017 at 05:56 PM.
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  #239  
Old 02-25-2017
Danny Danny is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal View Post
Hi Danny,

That's great to hear - nice work! The cramps are likely triggered from tension or unreleased tension swimming at faster tempos - really anything out of comfort zone can cause tension. As you get more comfortable with faster tempos, tension will ease and cramps should begin to subside.

Keep up the good work!

Stuart
Thanks, Stuart!
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  #240  
Old 02-26-2017
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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this is what coaches try to avoid.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6W4YEm1VJ0
Sort of a trunk driven swimming , but cracking at the hips.
I think the lowerback has the be more flat and connected with the hips, and the slight bending and twisting deviation is more concentrated in the upperbody, like Pal Joensen is doing for example.
As always, its about finding the right mix of ingredients to make the tastiest meal.
I agree this is going a bit out of control.
The guy is swimming this way for a reason though. His body tels hin he can create leverage on the water this way.
There is something that can be used from this movement. It just has to be poored into a more aquatic shape..

and this the olymoic version:
Very trunkdriven swimming by Calvyn Justus from the 3 min mark
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CV7cbM6sEpw

Last edited by Zenturtle : 03-22-2017 at 01:41 PM.
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