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  #141  
Old 12-23-2016
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Sheila presented at a USMS conference last month and although she doubled down on the 'S-curve' and the need to go back to that kind of thinking, almost in the same sentence she expressed the need for correct front quadrant timing - that was a first and a significant shift from what she has embraced before. This was however at odds with Rod havriluk's presentation that "negative stroke timing" (front quadrant timing) causes deceleration and is wrong. Although he (Rod) dismissed Sun Yang's "negative timing" as an anomaly and noted Yang must be strong or have bigger V02 max or something. I once argued with success with no supporting information too, like 20 years ago.

In any case, it was a pleasant surprise to hear Sheila embracing front quadrant timing, as well as discussing the importance of recovery arm too.

Stuart
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  #142  
Old 12-23-2016
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Well, we will see the latest discoverys in her new book I guess.
I think people who use an exagerated S pull like it because of its continuos motion, linked with the bodyrotation. ITs like a figure 8. Never ending, never stopping.
A long as the sidesweep at the front isnt loaded with water pressure it doesnt harm that much, but this style is to much for me too:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APZKsYWlpxQ

Being a well known long distance swimmer doesnt prove your technique is optimal, but maybe this is just the way she likes it.

Are the contents of these swim conferences available for the interested swimmers?

Last edited by Zenturtle : 12-23-2016 at 07:46 PM.
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  #143  
Old 12-24-2016
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If you are a USMS coach, you have access to slides and videos of each presentation.

Diana Nyad is a well known distance swimmer, but i wouldn't suggest her technique is optimal for open water swimming (although I like how she can breathes on 1's), but it works for her.

There is no one size fits all, but each swimmer finds what works for them given their physiology, life experiences and perceptions.

Stuart
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  #144  
Old 01-28-2017
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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We al want to be as streamlined as possble, but we also want to use as much body power as possible if we want to swim as fast as possible.
Sometimes these principles conflict and a swimmers chooses a compromise that gives the best performance for a certain distance.
In this case the swimmers gets a lot of power out of his upperbody. Not only the shoulders, but everything from hips to elbows.
He sacrifices some streamline because he bends his upperbody from left to right taking the most powerfull and full strokes he can.
This whole uperbody with shoulders drive is a huge powersource thats used in hip driven and shoulder dirven swimmers alike, although even more in shoulder driven swimmers.
Most swimmers in the pool dont use it to its full capacity.
You can still use a lot of it while not bending so much. Just try it sometimes and see if you like it.
Having a good paddle in the water helps to transfer all that available force to the water offcopurse. The traction and the force have to be matched to each other, otherwise neither is usefull.





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  #145  
Old 01-28-2017
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Notice his bodyshape during his stroke.
Dont only look at the elbow/forearm/hand/position.
This is not Iam Thorpe, but the guy in the next lane which is not doing bad either.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2b1Fiw9uekM (at 30 sec)
Thorpe himself also uses a lot of upperbody power in his stroke. He isnt just fast because he can kick so well with his big feet.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 01-28-2017 at 11:49 AM.
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  #146  
Old 01-28-2017
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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Hello ZT,

Quote:
Notice his bodyshape during his stroke.
Seems to me he integrated a dolphin-like-upperbody movement into his stroke. So the break of streamline might only appear as in single shots. In the video it looks more "dynamically" streamlined.

Best regards,
Werner

PS: OMG what happens in their powerhouses to swim like that?
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  #147  
Old 01-28-2017
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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A lot of swimmers use this action, also beginners.
Its an instinctive crawl movement I guess, which can be used to a certain extent. In beginners it goes with excessive fishtaling and crossing the centerline.
Some instincts can be good, They only need to be molded into a more aquatiq version.

Watch the guy from beneath in slowmo passing at 5 min 59.
Anchoring the arm on one side, sidecruching past it while the other side reaches out forwards to grab the next anchor position etc.
You can reach further forward by bending a bit and then use the trunkmuscles to unbend and reverse, like the walking action of a lizard.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNBfThvEsRI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rkls-FLrTgY

Last edited by Zenturtle : 01-29-2017 at 07:46 AM.
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  #148  
Old 01-28-2017
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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Hello ZT,

hmm... Maybe my TI-blinkers are working and the following is not fair. But it seems to me it's not a relaxed, streamlined or very effizient stroke in any way. More just before going to be a mixed of breast-stroke-legs and survival-frontcrawling. (That does not mean the guy can't be fast... And of course you mentioned some goodies)

Might be difficult to mold all that into a stroke-tuning for improvement. And as with most things: It's easier to learn new things than to change what you have (thought) you've still learned well...

Best regards,
Werner
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  #149  
Old 01-28-2017
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Quote:
More just before going to be a mixed of breast-stroke-legs and survival-frontcrawling.
Thats the beginner version. Next level is having a normal streamlined kick combimed with a long frontend and a working upperbody.
I am convinced a lot of people dont use enough muscles in the upperbody to take over more action from what the shoulder is doing in a motionless, dead upperbody.
As said, it has to be weighted against possible increases in drag. Without proof nobody can say how much streamline is compromised and how much energy is more evenly devided over different muscles, making the action more efficient in that regard.
Extending the shoulder forward as much as possible is more streamlined than keeping the shoulders wide for example. (without spine bending)
This is not relaxed if you are stiff, but it is efficient if the movement is easy for you. So its also a personal thing whats best.
Its an old topic again, but we see trunkbending as upperbody action with nearly all elite male backstrokers.
I guess Lochte knows what he is doing.
Try for yourself how you can make your stroke bigger by using nore trunk muscles. You might like it, ..or you dont.







here is Thorpe shown from the same angle as the first guy he was racing against.
Looks to me he also uses some of this sideays trunk action although in a more restraint and streamlined way.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srXOXT_Tz24

Another nice underwatershot from Mcevoy doing the same.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvsInk_04Fs

Last edited by Zenturtle : 02-08-2017 at 06:18 PM.
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  #150  
Old 01-31-2017
RodHavriluk RodHavriluk is offline
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Coach Stuart McDougal,

I’m sorry I wasn’t more convincing at the USMS Coach Clinic! Maybe this will help.

Both theory and research clearly support a positive index of arm coordination (where the entry arm begins generating propulsion before the opposite arm completes the push phase) as superior to a negative index of coordination (where there are gaps in arm propulsion). A recent example of a top swimmer with a positive index of coordination is one of my clients (Rudi Moreira) who recently broke one of Cesar Cielo’s Brazilian national records in the 50 m free. (STR policy is to keep client info confidential, but Rudi’s dad asked us to use Rudi as an example.)

Unfortunately, we mostly have only real-life examples of top swimmers with a negative index of coordination, such as Sun Yang. And yes, it’s likely that he is successful because he is exceptional in certain physical attributes, such as strength endurance and maximum oxygen uptake. But another main reason that he is successful is that all the swimmers he races also have technique limitations.

For example, wasted motion after the arm entry (such as is present with a negative index of coordination) is one technique limitation that is almost universal. In one study on university freestylers (Becker & Havriluk, 2014), the male swimmers wasted over one-tenth of a second and the female swimmers wasted over one-quarter of a second on every arm entry before they began to generate propulsion. You can find details in my FINA presentation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Z1MxLZoupE

You can also see how Michael Phelps has a negative index of coordination when his right arm enters in my MIT presentation: http://www.sloansportsconference.com/content/reject-conventional-wisdom-for-a-competitive-advantage-dont-swim-like-phelps-sport-science-track/

Catch-up stroke (the common name for a negative index of coordination) was the topic of my first “Misconceptions” article in Swimming World (Jan, 2014). Related articles were on: drills (Feb, 2015), arm coordination (Nov and Dec, 2015), and arm entry (Jan, 2016).

You might also review the research conducted by Ludovic Seifert on arm coordination. He found that expert swimmers use a positive index of arm coordination to swim their fastest.

Swimming with a negative index of coordination is conventional wisdom. However, we won’t know how fast humans can swim until our culture abandons this antiquated and scientifically unsupported style in favor of a positive index of coordination.

Rod Havriluk, Ph.D.
President, Swimming Technology Research
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