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  #121  
Old 12-05-2015
Danny Danny is offline
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Originally Posted by sclim View Post
Now the shoulder girdle isn't completely rigid -- we just often think of it as a single rigid rod passing through space between the shoulder joints. In actual fact it is two separate complex structures, each having a sliding surface (shoulder blade) and a pivot point (sterno-clavicular joint) at its medial (near the middle portion). So it actually can perform an independent left from right motion. It is not constrained to be a kayak paddle. I have not thought out exactly what movement it performs -- and it may be hard for me to work it out by myself. My head hurts, too much information for now! But I'll sleep on it
You're right, it isn't completely rigid, and here is where I am a little unsure of what I am actually doing. There are two extremes. On the one hand there is no coordination of the shoulder motion, and on the other hand, the two shoulders move in lock step. Lately I have been focussing on keeping the connection more rigid, and I have the feeling that I, like many other swimmers I see, often sin in the direction of having too little coordination in the shoulders. As to whether or not they are really in lock step, not sure, but watch the shoulder coordination of good swimmers and try to compare it to what you are doing.

And, like ZT says, the shoulders are only half of the picture. We often tend to focus too much on the shoulders and upper body and wind up neglecting the hips. This is where I claim that the undulation comes in, at least that is what it feels like to me. It has to be a whole body motion.
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  #122  
Old 12-05-2015
sclim sclim is offline
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You're right, it isn't completely rigid, and here is where I am a little unsure of what I am actually doing. There are two extremes. On the one hand there is no coordination of the shoulder motion, and on the other hand, the two shoulders move in lock step. Lately I have been focussing on keeping the connection more rigid, and I have the feeling that I, like many other swimmers I see, often sin in the direction of having too little coordination in the shoulders. As to whether or not they are really in lock step, not sure, but watch the shoulder coordination of good swimmers and try to compare it to what you are doing.

And, like ZT says, the shoulders are only half of the picture. We often tend to focus too much on the shoulders and upper body and wind up neglecting the hips. This is where I claim that the undulation comes in, at least that is what it feels like to me. It has to be a whole body motion.
OK, I'm back from martial arts class and finished cooking a batch of crepes for a pot luck tomorrow. I have thought a little more on the shoulder motion and where in the past I have been conscious of shoulder movement, especially in special actions of the shoulder.

One obvious movement that TI has made us all aware of is the stretching out of the lead hand in the spear after the hand entry. There is the more obvious extension, that is the opening up of the arm-pit angle as the arm reaches above the head (in the anatomical position, that is, pretending you are viewing in the standing position). But there is also the scapular elevation movement and some upward scapular rotation as the shoulder blade does a small upward slide with a slight rotation over the underlying muscles of the back of the thorax. This sliding scapular motion adds another inch or even maybe two inches to the upward reach of the fingertips in the anatomical position which is the same as forward reach of the lead hand in swimming.

Another situation where I was aware of was the time recently when my coach told me not to lift my shoulder during my above water arm recovery. I was trying to lead with my elbow, but because I have somewhat limited internal rotation range of my upper arm bone within my shoulder joint socket (the gleno-humeral joint, is the technical name) I was trying to compensate by sliding up and rotating outward my shoulder-blade at the same time as I was drawing that small ellipse with my elbow, like Terry demonstrates in his videos. Apparently this looked wrong but it was what I had been doing ever since I had absorbed the TI instruction to lead with the elbow during the recovery. I had no idea I was doing this with my shoulder! So I modified it and dropped my shoulder, which feels more relaxed now, but I think my elbow lead is not happening any more during my recovery.

The last piece of information in this department that I had ever thought about was during the pull. As I mentioned before, during the patient lead hand time period, not only is the upper arm (humerus) extended on the shoulder blade socket to whatever degree dictated by the spearing angle, but the scapula (shoulder-blade) is fully rotated and slid upwards. Then during the catch the elbow rises, the humerus rotates inwardly so that the forearm becomes more or less vertical, then a whole series of simultaneous movements start happening -- trunk rotation, flexion of the humerus on the shoulder and some further flexion of the elbow as the bent arm is pulled inferiorly, i.e towards the hips. Somewhere along the line, the scapular starts to slide back downwards from its fully elevated and outwardly rotated position in the opposite sliding and rotating directions. So the whole shoulder joint (which is mounted on the scapula) is moved inferiorly during the "pull" or the "anchor", depending how you want to describe the application of propulsive arm force to the water.

Exactly what is happening to the shoulder during these three phases I have alluded to here in relationship to the position of the other shoulder at the same time is completely beyond me at this moment. But from just reviewing what I blurted out, above, off the top of my head, it seems obvious that I'm not moving my shoulders in lock step with each other, and there seems to be some independence of movement and action from left to right side, and from shoulder girdle to shoulder joint movement and action on both sides. I suspect that struggling to work it out further or more precisely is not going to profit me as much as trying to integrate the various simultaneous actions I am more familiar with -- i.e. trunk rotation, hip drive, pressing chest, thigh-whip foot kick, etc.

Last edited by sclim : 12-05-2015 at 06:21 AM.
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  #123  
Old 12-05-2015
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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theory
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iN0N09C_-H8

This is how much the shoulderjoint itself can move relative to the ribcage.
Usefull to do some scapular pushups and other regular exercises if needed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swlmozH4Fcc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzCctmxPl9o

Sclim
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But Zheng has no alibi to fall back on, so what stops his torso from spinning uselessly when he flutter kicks?.
Good kickers do not only use the downkick, but also the upkick to produce propulsion.
One leg kicks down while the other kicks ups and vice versa. Adding all the rotating forces over the whole cycle gives zero.
During the cycle the left right rotation is like a sinuswave. The sinuswave goes through zero every cycle.
The bodymass is so great that inertia stops excessive amplitude at those high kicking frequencies.
Thats why sprinters rotate less than slow rate long distance swimmers. Rotating the whole body fast from left to right takes too much energy.
Instead they mostly rotate the shouldergirdle on top on a fairly stable hip base. The shoulders are much lighter to rotate fast compared to the whole body.
Here some inertia visualisation.
The body is the part with inertia , the legs try to disturb that inertia. The faster the kick, the less the mass is disturbed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hyw9uNF4nmE

Last edited by Zenturtle : 12-05-2015 at 03:42 PM.
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  #124  
Old 12-05-2015
sclim sclim is offline
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Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
Nice complete review by Mike Reinhold how the shoulder works and where it can and actually go wrong in people despite their trying to compensate.

And your answer to my "how does Zheng not spin uselessly (flutter kicking) with no arms" question makes good sense.
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  #125  
Old 12-06-2015
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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It's been a while (years) since I parted with any cold, hard cash on my swimming, but I'm going to spring for this Freestyle Reimagined by Bill Boomer - thanks for the link, coach Stuart. If any UK readers are similarly inclined, but put-off by their prohibitive $39 shipping (ouch!), I emailed them to complain nicely, and they can send it by USPS , like TI uses, for under $20, albeit uninsured. Caveat emptor. (Apologies if this reads like an advert. It is not.)

I love this forum and the analysis, but sometimes I just have to see what the guy (no less than Boomer!) actually has to say... I will report back.

A.
Can you already give a review BX?
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  #126  
Old 12-06-2015
bx bx is offline
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Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
Can you already give a review BX?
Hi ZT

I'd say it's more aimed at coaches than sub-mediocre swimmers like me. Tried the high-side impulse stuff for just one session sans success. In 5 years' time, I might be able to incorporate it into my hip-driven stroke.

The aquatic signature idea is interesting, but again, more useful if you're coaching competetive swimmers. Incidentally, in my aquatic signature, my legs rotate to vertical, so I should be a sprinter!

There were 1 1/2 things that I found useful though, incidental to the high side impulse discussion.

The first thing was Boomer often saying "sternum up". Now, on a different swimming site, they say "swim proud". All that cue makes me do is puff my chest out and arch my lower back. But "sternum up" does the right thing, and was a new sensation to me. It makes a big difference in the feeling of power application, and it makes me feel more torpedo-like.

And the 1/2 thing, which I'd already discovered for myself this year, was the importance of returning the head to face down nice and quickly after a breath.
So it was good to see this confirmed, when Boomer was making corrections to his subject swimmer. Without returning nose-down, you can't get into the hip drive, as you're effectively locked up.

Was it worth the price? Um, maybe. The sternum thing is quite a big deal. There, I've saved you the purchase!
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  #127  
Old 12-07-2015
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Thanks for saving me a few bucks BX,

I am still currious about the exact content offcourse, but I guess I am not missing something revolutionary, that isnt mentioned anywere else on the internet or in swimming books.
Always interesting to hear the original opinions of a relative outsider though.

By sternum up you mean up in a standing position, So lifting to the ceiling when you stand?

I mostly forget the turn the head down a bit earlier compared to body rotation at the end of the breath.
Is does give a better awareness of where all the limbs are and allows getting a bit more power in your stroke. Sort of head leads and gives room to the directly following action.

In the end all the little changes in your stroke feel big when you first find them, but translate hardly in real speed gains in the short run.
In the long run it all adds up though. (hopefully) And when you are excited finding a new golden swimnugget this positive vibe lets you swim a lot faster too that session.

For the low stroke count lovers adding to he collection on this thread:
8-10 strokes-25 ? @ 1min/100? pace
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXxSvKKxx3Q
And another 10 strokes per length
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwjTQmniSmI
A number is one thing, the actual stroke is another.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 12-08-2015 at 11:40 PM.
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  #128  
Old 07-21-2016
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CoachStuartMcDougal CoachStuartMcDougal is offline
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Default Body posture and Vasa Trainer

Here's a good piece I found on SwimSwam where Coach Kredich (before the Freestyle Re-imagined was released) using the Vasa Trainer to isolate new concepts and discover correct and incorrect posture, and how posture directly relates to propulsion. Using the trainer from the forearm to slow the low side arm down to keep from spilling water (slipping) with the palm, low side arm (forearm) holds water as body moves over it. Also isolating the position of low side arm in max traction and leverage is a very small part or percentage of the cycle. Embedded video is 35 mins, but worth viewing the entire segment.

https://swimswam.com/matt-kredich-co...ure-pull-land/

Stuart
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  #129  
Old 07-21-2016
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Thats a new one for me.

When I use stretch cords I Have them High on the ceiling over a pulley.
This way you can stand straight up in your swimming posture while you load the body with the excentric pulling force.
You can add rotation while you pull, attach the stretch cord near the elbows etc.
IBut its still so boring I hardly use them. Anyway. Its better than standing with a bend lower back in nonswimming posture.


About the propulsion stuff.
Thinking about the pulling still water theory. You tend to only think about the water that is still before the hand.
Will the water before the hand move already in the direction of the hand or not?
Seems to me the water before the hand is almost standing still, right before the hand or 4 inches sideays of the hand
In that sense it doesnt matter if you move the hand to still water.
Thats different for water turbuklence and vortices behind the hand.
Here you gp from water already in movement behind the hand to water thats still.
That has to make differnce in the total resistance the hand creates.
The water behind the hand has to be accelerated when you move the hand sideways a bit. That costs energy, which must be derived from traction.
Very simple tests can check the still water theory.
Has nobody done these tests?

Last edited by Zenturtle : 07-21-2016 at 07:26 PM.
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  #130  
Old 07-22-2016
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CoachStuartMcDougal CoachStuartMcDougal is offline
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ZT:

I believe Coach Kredich is using the Vasa Trainer for position (head, spine, tucked hips) and awareness where low side arm is in position of maximum grip and leverage - not for building strength. Also, he explains lateral movement of low side arm causes water to spill off the hand/foream (slip). I haven't heard the term "water spilling"; it's very specific and I like it.

Stuart
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