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  #61  
Old 08-01-2013
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Hi Caro, indeed we're talking 2 different slow pace concepts in this thread.

Walking pace would be the highest pace one can achieve at virtually zero effort.

Snail pace (as you called it) , is rather the absolute slowest pace one can achieve whilst swimming something that looks pretty much like freestyle, although I tend to be very tolerant here, focusing on distance achieved rather than technical quality.

The later is what those who've tried to reach perpetual for long time should (IMO) aim for.

As far as I'm concerned (though there could be several other uses), the walking pace concept is a way for anyone (given that I can some day publish a table of paces per gender/age) to know if much more time should be spent on technique, rather than on fitness. That is, if your usual swim training pace is under the walking pace for your gender/age, then you may benefit much more from better taking swim lessons and improving your technique.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caro View Post
I wish Charles, I think you may be confusing me with someone with some fast twitch muscle fibres. The fastest I have swum 50m is 42s. When I do 25m sprints I can do a nice calm 20s with a two beat kick. When I try to go faster I hit the wall at 19s, I have tried everything I can think of to go faster
That is (or at least should be) a totally different topic in itself. The Total Immersion stroke provides with unique opportunity to really improve streamline/balance. But in itself, it does not prepare to optimizing sprinting, without a few tweaks. For instance 2bk probably has to become a 6bk. But there again it's a completely different topic, ie how do TI lovers tweak and prepare for flat out 50/100m performances...

Last edited by CharlesCouturier : 08-01-2013 at 03:14 PM.
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  #62  
Old 08-01-2013
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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the relationship between rate and SPL determines speed, right?

Those with poorer technique generally are slower because the have more drag

At walking swim speeds are are not trying to create a fast tempo, rather a slow one

The slowness of the tempo is arbitrary

Therefore we are left with SPL as the variable for any individual

What's the lowest SPL you can swim ... regardless of speed...would seem to be the question at stake here.

The danger zone being...rate continues to slow, but SPL begins going up. That's counterproductive to our investigation as it only muddies the picture.
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  #63  
Old 08-03-2013
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Originally Posted by Richardsk View Post
...devoted to dolphin undulation with small sculling motion
Feet kicking together? Or?? Doing the NAD (No-Arms-Drill) is something I dream of!
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  #64  
Old 08-03-2013
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier View Post
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Originally Posted by andyinnorway View Post
so with that in mind, do you think people struggling would find it easier to swim a mile with closed fists than with open?
Yes I do, though it may increase the feeling of vertigo. Never thought about this idea, thanks!
Wow!! Reading that reply made my palms tingle with vertigo!! It also makes me realise how much my breathing has to improve.
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  #65  
Old 08-03-2013
terry terry is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier View Post
The Total Immersion stroke provides with unique opportunity to really improve streamline/balance. But in itself, it does not prepare to optimizing sprinting, without a few tweaks. For instance 2bk probably has to become a 6bk. But there again it's a completely different topic, ie how do TI lovers tweak and prepare for flat out 50/100m performances...
TI isn't fundamentally about rate. Rate is a tool and a skill to be applied to TI technique.
Likewise 2BK is not a fundamental aspect of TI technique. It is also a tool and skill to be applied to certain goals. We do indeed feel pretty strongly that--for the vast majority of our likely clients--2BK is a far superior tool for achieving their goals.
Where we differ from traditional thinking is that, for those people like myself and quite a few others who also try to win races and perhaps break the occasional record, we do not believe 2BK is an impediment to achieving a strong pace for swims of 400m and up. I believe the example of Laure Manaudou supports (not 'proves') our thinking there.

What IS fundamental about TI Method and Technique are the following:
1) Put most emphasis in training--and in racing strategies--on saving the scarce resources of energy and power. Be knowledgeable about energy metabolism needs, but achieve it in task specific ways, never generically.
What this means in application:
One should never train to 'get in shape.'
One should always train to hone the skills that win races.
Conditioning will "happen" as you do, and will be specific, not general.

2) Be a vessel-shaper, not an engine-builder. Value Streamlining above Propulsion. This does not mean neglecting propulsive skills, but building them on a foundation of a long, sleek, stable bodyline.

3) Practice integration. Do not practice dis-integration (Arms Dept/Legs Dept).

4) Never practice struggle. Don't push through pain barriers to prove your 'intestinal fortitude.' Never swim 'hard.'

If you feel there is anything in here that conflicts with success in sprinting, you'd get a strong argument from all the sprinters I've coached over 30+ years with considerable success.

I think you'd also get an argument from Gennadi Touretski and Alexander Popov--who I believe are the coach-athlete partnership that had more enduring success in dominating world sprinting than anyone since Johnny Weissmuller.
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  #66  
Old 08-03-2013
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
the relationship between rate and SPL determines speed, right? ...
The danger zone being...rate continues to slow, but SPL begins going up.
Your first statement must hold true, as long as the stroke itself is of equivalent efficiency. If the stroke provides no force there would be no motion and the SPL will be infinity.

I tried engaging with this the other day, but it was confusing somehow and after a few hundred metres I found I reverted to a "normal" stroke.

I wonder if, for us poor swimmers anyway, slowing down almost inevitably results in some lowering of stroke efficiency at first?? It felt as if it did for me, though in OW it's harder to tell, especially when it's cold!
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  #67  
Old 08-03-2013
Caro Caro is offline
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Hi Charles,

I think a table of table of paces per gender/age is a really good idea, good luck with it, I imagine you will need a lot of data.

In the pool yesterday I tried to determine walking pace using your definition but found it really hard to decide what constituted virtually zero effort. The closest I've come to effortless swimming is swimming on the toes of someone infront, basically they are making the effort and I'm just being pulled along.

I decided to go with a perceived effort of easy i.e. it felt easy and breathing rate went up very little after 100m. On this scale I decided that walking pace for me is about 30s/25m and 27s/25m is more like marathon running pace (which in my case would be more of a jog). I don't know if this meets your criteria though?

NB: The use of the word 'effortless' in TI has always annoyed me, I understand the intention but all movement requires effort, 'easy' is a lot more appropriate. Sorry, not your fault Charles, just a little rant about something that has been bugging me for a long time.

I'll start another thread about going fast.
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  #68  
Old 08-03-2013
andyinnorway andyinnorway is offline
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Originally Posted by terry View Post
The more stable and streamlined I can hold my bodyline, the faster I'll cross the pool, even while aiming for ease.
This is one reason why I really enjoy the early heats of the 50 and 100m freestyle sprints. The guys 'flailing' down the pool are still way ahead of me with 50 times of 28-30 seconds but their lack of technique compared to the elite is so visible. Particularly how the torso appears to move left and right with the stroke rather than maintaining one strong streamlined vessel.
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  #69  
Old 08-03-2013
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caro View Post
Hi Charles,

I think a table of table of paces per gender/age is a really good idea, good luck with it, I imagine you will need a lot of data.
Statistical data isn't an issue, as a pal of mine happens to be the director of Master Swimming Canada.

The $$ part is purchasing a measurement system that will allow me to measure force exerted on the water by the swimmer, that is, actually knowing how hard they need to pull in order to swim the speed they wish to swim.

The rest of the story is simple, since I work in a university with people that can help me publishing (ie, defining scientific protocol, helping me with the maths/physics involved, recruiting subjects, etc). It is not impossible to envision testing at least 100 subjects + pre-existing swimmer data.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Caro View Post
In the pool yesterday I tried to determine walking pace using your definition but found it really hard to decide what constituted virtually zero effort. The closest I've come to effortless swimming is swimming on the toes of someone infront, basically they are making the effort and I'm just being pulled along.

I decided to go with a perceived effort of easy i.e. it felt easy and breathing rate went up very little after 100m. On this scale I decided that walking pace for me is about 30s/25m and 27s/25m is more like marathon running pace (which in my case would be more of a jog). I don't know if this meets your criteria though?
You know Caro, there are several speeds at which one may walk. And I'll make clear that we're not looking at defining a specific pace, but rather a range (I guess... thinking out loud here, thanks for your help in this regard by the way, ie forcing me to re-think). So the "number" in itself isn't rocket science.

However I would think that this pace shouldn't feel like Jog, but really like Walk. 60sec/50, if it's really your walking pace, should therefore be very easy to sustain over a full kilo, and at the end you should even be able to start jogging, ie increasing the pace up to 54sec/50.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Caro View Post
NB: The use of the word 'effortless' in TI has always annoyed me, I understand the intention but all movement requires effort, 'easy' is a lot more appropriate. Sorry, not your fault Charles, just a little rant about something that has been bugging me for a long time.
of course it's not my fault, as in the case of this topic (walking pace), the effort is really virtually null.

Here Caro. Picture yourself, along with say, an athlete of mine:

The guy displays exceptional genetic talent. 40yo male, Marathon = 3:06 (with 30-40k of running per week, no more), great cyclist (compete in a team), first Ironman = 11:10 with a come back in 3:35 (swim = 1:30!), etc... Well Caro, he can not hold 60sec/50m. His fastest sustainable pace no pull buoy is about 1:10/50m, he's rushing to achieve this.

So, you 2 are in the same lane. He compliments you on your stroke. You're like "well I'm not doing much". Then you start swimming laps at the same pace, ie his!!!

Caro, at a pace of 1:10/50m, you swim effortlessly. Period. With no drift of what effortless means. End of the story.

And if my fastest guys try to swim at your speed, they will tell me that it's impossible. Not only is it effortlessly, but it's impossible to slow down as much.

So yes effortless exists, but there's no such thing when you up the pace and reach speeds closer to your race pace. No one can swim fast with no effort.
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  #70  
Old 08-03-2013
Mike from NS Mike from NS is offline
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Hi Andy,

These guys that muscle their way through the water must have a different goal than most of us -- or perhaps they do find their enjoyment in swimming with a quicker crossing of the pool. I may be wrong; but most here, and perhaps including yourself, swim for the relaxed pleasure of it all. Having said that, deep down we all measure our skill by looking at speed. I use the "un-announced" race technique for comparison when in a lane next to a capable swimmer (who may be thrashing a bit). And many of these fast capable swimmers seem so near a heart attack at times - due to the obvious over exertion - upon reaching the end of the lane. Is that really enjoyable? To them , it must be.

I've been away from the water for a week (picked up a really nasty "summer cold" c/w a tuberculin sounding cough) but hope today to pick up where I left off. My focus will be being streamlined with a slow stroke.

Mike
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