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  #1  
Old 08-13-2013
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Default Definitions and formulas (2.0 Coach Training)

Quote:
Originally Posted by terry View Post
....what we teach in 2.0 Coach Training is that our coaches should help clients find an SPL range somewhere between .50 and .75 of wingspan. We also use a Wingspan Conversion factor--ratio of wingspan to height.
Those with a WC factor, like Shinji's, of 1.07 should aim for .55 to .75 as their range. Those with a WC factor of 1.0--like mine--will likely be in the range from .5 to .7.
This is from another thread, and I fully realise this is far from an exact science but still, I'd like to get answers to the following questions:

1. Is the WCF wingspan/height or height/wingspan?

2. What are the units to derive the SPL range from?

3. Is there a table or guide from which the SPL range (SPLR?) can be found for a particular WCF?

Example:

My wingspan is 184 cm / 72.5 inches (between fingertips) and my height is 178 cm / 70 inches (head to heel). So:

My WCF could be either 0.96 or 1.03. Which is it?

These dimensions (without applying my WCF) generate SPLs of between 36 and 138 !!!! This must be something to do with the units. What should be used for the calculation?

How do I determing the sub-range for my WCF?


EDIT:

Reading on in that thread which Terry's quote comes from I read a reference to DPS being 0.7 of height. Does this fit with the above? i.e for me the formula for SPL would then be (using metres and in a 25m pool): 25 / (1.78 x 0.7) = 20 SPL

I also have a problem with the counting method though. Does the above include the push off, discount the first stroke etc?? Terry cites a 5m pushoff. I have no way of figuring out what mine is. So is there any way to calculate a "standing start SPL" ie one that would be the same in any body of water? Otherwise the SPL can be changed simply by working on pushoff which seems to defeat the object of the measurement (for me anyway).
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Last edited by Talvi : 08-13-2013 at 11:18 AM.
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Old 08-13-2013
terry terry is offline
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Talvi
Good questions. Your innate curiosity about these things suggests you'll experience years of Kaizen and Flow.

The WCF is wingspan/height. So your ratio is 1.03. (Mine is 1.02).
That suggests your Distance Per Stroke should be in a range of 50-70 percent of Wingspan. Where in that range you are on a particular swim will be influenced by factors like distance swum and Tempo.

To calculate your range of SPL for a given course (25y, 25m, 50m) you should know your average pushoff distance. I've used 5 yards as a rough guide for mine. When I surface and take my first breath, I'm usually a bit beyond the backstroke turn flags, which are set at 5y in a yard pool. (In a meter pool, they ought to be at 5m.) I estimate that i initiate my first stroke (still underwater) about a yard earlier. [To be more precise I could have someone watch me swim 100y or so at typical pace and eyeball the point where I break my streamline to begin the first stroke. Then I'd subtract that distance from what remains and divide it by wingspan. Then multiply that distance by .5 and .7 to get my SPL range.

TI Training is basically an effort to raise that percentage higher at various combinations of distance and Tempo. Or to maintain a given percentage while increasing either Tempo or Distance.
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Old 08-13-2013
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Thanks Terry :)

Then, if from a standing start (i.e a lying start or very gentle floating push) I can presumably get to my ideal SPL range simply by dividing the pool length by DPS?
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A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
~ George Kelly

"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov

Last edited by Talvi : 08-13-2013 at 08:09 PM. Reason: Oops!
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Old 08-13-2013
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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This Q&A thread makes it clear that there is a consumer product in development here, Terry
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Old 08-14-2013
terry terry is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talvi View Post
Then, if from a standing start (i.e a lying start or very gentle floating push) I can presumably get to my ideal SPL range simply by dividing the pool length by DPS?
Doesn't have to be so gentle. Mine is never hard, but always firm.
I
try to optimize--not maximize--my pushoffs by streamlining underwater, albeit with very little or no kicking--just a light, brief flurry of the feet to counter loss of momentum near the end of glide and to aid in breaking out with enough speed that I can maintain with a light, clean first stroke.

I get good distance, but with little oxygen cost and reach the surface with solid momentum intact.
Saves me strokes, but doesn't create any oxygen debt. Something to which I've given keen attention in middle age. Better turns have been one of the things that's kept my Stroke Length consistent for a couple of decades now.
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Old 08-15-2013
Talvi Talvi is offline
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I'm only now using open turns. Haven't dared try a tumble yet. I assume you are talking of using the latter. Do you see it as a progression from the one to the other, or is there so little in common between the two that improving open turns doesn't help much with tumbles?
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A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
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  #7  
Old 08-15-2013
wie wie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by terry View Post
To calculate your range of SPL for a given course (25y, 25m, 50m) you should know your average pushoff distance. ...
Then I'd subtract that distance from what remains and divide it by wingspan. Then multiply that distance by .5 and .7 to get my SPL range.
I don't understand this.
Could someone provide an example, please?

50 m pool, 5 m push-off, wingspan 1,84

(50-5)/1,84*0,5 = 12 ?
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Old 08-15-2013
CoachDavidShen CoachDavidShen is offline
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Hey all, Coach Mat Hudson posted an excellent post on his blog on this topic. It's a fascinating way of comparing yourself to an elite, and also can give you clues as to what need you to work on:

http://smoothstrokes.wordpress.com/2...l-competition/
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Old 08-15-2013
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Another way of looking at the same type of issue is to freeze these metrics in a swim done open water, ie with no turns (no glide).

The following table here can be useful https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...5Sm5NbVE#gid=0

If you input 2.11 of wingspan for the young Yang (fine, you can leave it like that after you're done), change any of the stroke rate row (by default set with an increment of 5rpm) to 63 (please set it back to its default value when you're done) and also set a WC ratio to .76, this gives you a clear idea of how fast Yang would swim a 1500 open water. In this case, the result would be 14:51sec (perfectly flat conditions of course, no wind no tides).

In the same lines of thoughts, this means that for a wingspan of 1.80, coach Mat would need to hold 69.6sec/100m to beat Yang (that is, using the same rate/efficiency combination), that is 17min24sec.

This (at least in my mind) yields the question: Can a mere mortal ag swimmer/coach beat Yang at this game?

Last edited by CharlesCouturier : 08-15-2013 at 04:29 PM.
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  #10  
Old 08-15-2013
terry terry is offline
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Default Corrected equation for calculating SPL.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wie View Post
I don't understand this.
Could someone provide an example, please?

50 m pool, 5 m push-off, wingspan 1,84

(50-5)/1,84*0,5 = 12 ?
Wie
So sorry. The last part of my instruction on how to calculate was inverted.
Your stroking distance is 45m.
If your efficiency was perfect -- I.E. you traveled one complete wingspan in each stroke, it would take you 45/1.84 or 26 strokes to complete a 50m pool length.

DIVIDE (not multiply) that number by .55 to .75 to find a suggested SPL range for a 50m pool. That suggests a range between 34 and 42 for you.

I did the calculation for myself
Perfect efficiency -- traveling one full wingspan each stroke -- would be 24 strokes. The closest I've ever gotten is 27 strokes.
75% of perfect efficiency is 32 strokes.
70% is 38.5 strokes is 34 strokes. According to my ratio of wingspan:height of 1.02, this should be the top of my efficiency range. In fact in today's practice I swam precisely two lengths at this count -- the first length of my Tuneup and Cooldown.
65% is 37 strokes
60% is 40 strokes.
55% is 44 strokes.

The functional ceiling I've set for myself this summer has been 41 SPL or approx. 58% to 59%.

I did virtually all of this morning's practice between 60% and 65% efficiency.

PS: I wouldn't automatically assume a 5m pushoff. To be fully accurate I suggest you have someone watch you swim 200m or more and try to mark the place on each length where you break from your glide to begin first stroke. Measure the distance from wall to there and you have your actual pushoff. Subtract THAT distance from 25y, 25m or 50m and you have your stroking distance for each course.
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Last edited by terry : 08-15-2013 at 04:35 PM.
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