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  #1  
Old 05-05-2013
swimust swimust is offline
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swimust
Default a challenge to coaches and swimmers

I have two videos of before and after belonging to a TI swimmer that I met in my local pool (my video is still in the oven).
He saw me swimming and asked me if I swim TI. Then he asked me if I can help him because he was "lost". You will see why in the first video. crazy stuff.
I asked him what was he thinking during a stroke cycle. One thing led to another and I "fixed him" as seen in the "after" video.
blind leading the blind ;)

This maybe a challenge (or not) to coaches and swimmers. Lets see who gets it right.
Only one thing was changed in his swim! Just one change made the whole difference.
You will be scared by the "before" video :)

The 'before' link: (what the hell?) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cxKtAQ5ckA
The 'after' link: (much better) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i14H4jzMO4I

If no one solves the mystery then I will give a hint. This should be interesting :)
In my donkey opinion, the matter is not as simple and straight forward as it my look!...
To me its a very interesting error!
(drama here we go. I am not showing off, just intrigued by this error)
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Last edited by swimust : 05-05-2013 at 01:37 PM.
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  #2  
Old 05-05-2013
bx bx is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swimust View Post
This maybe a challenge (or not) to coaches and swimmers. Lets see who gets it right.
Only one thing was changed in his swim! Just one change made the whole difference.
You will be scared by the "before" video :)

The 'before' link: (what the hell?) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cxKtAQ5ckA
The 'after' link: (much better) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i14H4jzMO4I

If no one solves the mystery then I will give a hint. This should be interesting :)
In my donkey opinion, the matter is not as simple and straight forward as it my look!...
To me its a very interesting error!
(drama here we go. I am not showing off, just intrigued by this error)
Well, OK, let's see. At first thought I'd say he was over-rotating to the left, causung his recovery arm to go waay behind his spine.

But it's clearly a "trick" question, and I think I've spotted it.

I'd say he's been trying to copy a bit of Shinji, and he's not properly separated the second half of the "Shinji wrist twist" on the recovering arm from the first phase (of 5) of the Shinji leg snap, causing his elbow to point to Sagittarius.

Do I win £10?
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  #3  
Old 05-05-2013
Mike from NS Mike from NS is offline
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swimust,

It looks to me that he is practicing for OW swimming and expects to engage seaweed with the right arm. He is simulating his movements with the right arm so that he can fling the seaweed away. Doesn't seem to be a left arm issue.
--------OR ------- as bx suggests, it is shinji related. In the before he over does the shinji wrist snap, to the point of crossing his back's center line with the right arm. In the after video, he completes the right arm stroke with the wrist snap at the right hip. Instant improvement !

Next ???
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  #4  
Old 05-05-2013
swimust swimust is offline
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haha two funny and nice replies. "wrist twist".... :)
Mike from NS is a bit closer to the answer but still wrong and far from it!
I expect CoachSuzanne to explain this correctly in 3 to 5 words maximum ;)
I have a hint ready but I am waiting to see other comments before giving it. I suspect that its not such an easy case.
I never heard about this error before, but with all the coaches and swimmers here, someone or more may explain it correctly.
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Last edited by swimust : 05-05-2013 at 03:57 PM.
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  #5  
Old 05-05-2013
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Excessive right hand final push/exit was preventing the swimmer from experiencing a nice round and smooth hand exit.

You've managed, in what seems to be a record time, to make things much rounder, with great beneficial impact on arm recovery, body rotation (which is much smoother) and possibly on balance. Instead of pushing and exiting way too far, toward the mid line of the body (his right hand was pushing and exiting toward the left side) the swimmer now push and exit less far and the hand immediately initiate the recovery.

My question would be about the impact of this on both swim time and distance per stroke. Sometimes when we fix this, we loose a bit on DPS. So care must be taken here.

Well done coach!

Last edited by CharlesCouturier : 05-05-2013 at 04:00 PM.
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  #6  
Old 05-05-2013
Mike from NS Mike from NS is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swimust View Post
Mike from NS is a bit closer to the answer but still wrong and far from it!
Closer ... but no cigar :^(
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  #7  
Old 05-05-2013
swimust swimust is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier View Post
Excessive right hand final push/exit was preventing the swimmer from experiencing a nice round and smooth hand exit.

You've managed, in what seems to be a record time, to make things much rounder, with great beneficial impact on arm recovery, body rotation (which is much smoother) and possibly on balance. Instead of pushing and exiting way too far, toward the mid line of the body (his right hand was pushing and exiting toward the left side) the swimmer now push and exit less far and the hand immediately initiate the recovery.

My question would be about the impact of this on both swim time and distance per stroke. Sometimes when we fix this, we loose a bit on DPS. So care must be taken here.

Well done coach!
1) "record time" took about two days. not at once. I found it finally after a lot of talking to him.
2) we hope that smoother, balanced, and streamlined swim will keep his DPS which is indeed in danger.
3) you described the symptoms correctly but you have NOT found the disease itself! (the error). There is a very accurate specific reason to his error. I knew it wont be easy :)
It shows that I know "something" but I still have much more to learn.
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  #8  
Old 05-05-2013
swimust swimust is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike from NS View Post
Closer ... but no cigar :^(
closer than bx but not even close ;)

I knew it wont be easy but I didn't wanted to be cocky about it. waiting for the coaches to speak up...
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Last edited by swimust : 05-05-2013 at 05:06 PM.
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  #9  
Old 05-05-2013
Mike from NS Mike from NS is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swimust View Post
closer than bx but not even close ;)

I knew it wont be easy but I didn't wanted to be cocky about it. waiting for the coaches to speak...
swimust,
a puzzle can always be interesting and often challenging too - if we let it.

This post of the two - difficult to see - videos makes us think .... and this is good ! After all ... that is what swimming is to many of us .... especially me. It is a puzzle that challenges me; and enjoying a puzzle is possibly one of many reasons I'm still trying to learn to swim. When I solve the puzzle .... I should be able to swim. ;-)
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Last edited by Mike from NS : 05-05-2013 at 05:18 PM.
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  #10  
Old 05-05-2013
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swimust View Post
1) "record time" took about two days. not at once. I found it finally after a lot of talking to him.
2) we hope that smoother, balanced, and streamlined swim will keep his DPS which is indeed in danger.
3) you described the symptoms correctly but you have NOT found the disease itself! (the error). There is a very accurate specific reason to his error. I knew it wont be easy :)
It shows that I know "something" but I still have much more to learn.
The thing mate, and here let me push quite far with a strange analogy with bugs. Most hate spiders, but as bad as a spider infestation in some home is real bad, they have their use.

The disease in this case like you call it is more or less a connection that the swimmer made between pushing more, and receiving a good DPS return feedback.

Here, let me bring this extract from a reply Coach Suzanne recently made:
Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
As soon as the hand drops out of streamline (and we are actually teaching to spear out of streamline, into a partially already dropped position), the body starts to slow down. it's always going to be a balance of the top speed of a stroke, how much slowdown occurs over what period of time, how much energy it takes to speed back up and all of this must be balanced with the swimmers biomechanics and strength. I don't think you can put an arbitrary number on all of this (although it would make a really nice calculus problem).
What she describes here is a very important phenomenon, a bless for any swimmer who masters this. It's the feeling one gets of the variation in speed he encounters whilst swimming. Your guy could have draw a link between "I push real hard at the back of the stroke and I feel that it helps the propulsion".

So I believe that the underlying cause of this pertucular bug, isn't a disease per se. It's more something that needs to be tamed, rather than entirely eliminated. I'd go as far as stating that this bug is good news for me, whenever I come across it. The extent at which it is demonstrated in your clip, I would have fixed it immediately. But sometimes we see this issue to a much milder extent, and in these cases very often I will wait for a few *months* before attempting to tame it.

Last edited by CharlesCouturier : 05-05-2013 at 05:18 PM.
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