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  #11  
Old 06-08-2018
novaswimmer novaswimmer is offline
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Originally Posted by WFEGb View Post

But their lips in front are designed to let them flop around... what we should try to avoid in FS. (In Germany such baists are called "Wobbler", like the term.)
Actually the lips on crank baits can be crafted/configured to accentuate diving or wobbling, or both. A wider lip causes water to spill from side to side more slowly creating a wider and slower wobble. Also, the body shape of the lure can affect the wobble. But I doubt we as swimmers will ever have to worry about our arms creating that kind of wobble because the surface area of the arm compared to body mass is so small. The water pressure on a lure's lip is great compared to that on the very hydrodynamic, light-weight lure body.

Lips can certainly be configured to make the lure dive. You want some baits to dive to the bottom where the bottom-feeders live and where the water is cooler. It's the angle of attack or the angle to which the lip attaches to the bait that affects the dive (as well as the location of the tow point on the front of the fishing lure -- and the speed at which you retrieve the lure through the water). Too sharp a lip angle will increase drag, too shallow and it will not dive as quickly. Try swimming with a kick board held down at an angle in the water and see if you wobble or if you dive.

Interesting discussion!

Last edited by novaswimmer : 06-08-2018 at 07:17 PM.
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  #12  
Old 06-09-2018
CoachDavidShen CoachDavidShen is offline
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Hello David,

thanks for your great post! May I ask an additional question:

Thought our muscles work most effective when stretched a little bit (or even as long as possible). So shouldn't we go bit more into the beginning of stretch/tension?
You pose an interesting and complex question! I'll answer it like this:

1. In general, muscles must lengthen before they can contract.

2. In essence, loading the muscle via either eccentric lengthening and/or fascial loading allows for more efficient energy storage and then release to help with a muscles' contractive phase.

3. I believe there is an effective limit to how much length you can give a muscle before other negative things begin to happen and you can't contract as effectively nor efficiently, potentially raising the risk of strain/pulls/tears. Having said that, there are techniques to strengthen muscles at the end ranges of motion which then increases strength throughout.

4. If you hold the stretch too long, then you lose some of its elastic potential to return energy back into the movement.

5. In terms of what happens in spear depth, the problem is that you start to change your torso posture in order to try to gain some particular depth with some tension. This is especially apparent in those who do not have the skill to hold their arm at a particular depth with a bit of tension and *not* change their torso posture. Once torso posture is affected, then the risk grows that they will impart a downward force at the hips when they do so, not to mention being less effective at rotational capability than with spine aligned properly.

More experienced and more trained individuals will be able to raise their arm higher and still retain their posture. However, more experienced and trained individuals will likely have more mobility at the shoulder and be able to spear higher without any tension.

6. To me, holding the arm higher with tension is an energy wasting endeavor. You are unnecessarily wiping out your upward rotators for little gain. Water resistance and gravity both conspire to resist keeping your arm higher.

Now what gain could we get? If we go back to items 1-4, the tension we'd get resisting the upward rotation of the arm would be in the downward (towards the bottom of the pool) and thus the energy would be returned that way. It would seem to me that the eccentric lengthening and muscular/fascial loading we'd want is in the rearward direction, or towards our feet. This would be achieved more by lengthening the lats.

Now the lats would be lengthening a bit if you tried to rotate the arm higher, but maybe not as much as learning how to extend the arm forward without affecting spinal alignment. (Note that you can extend the arm forward by tilting at the shoulders, which would then induce a curve in the spine to get that arm forward. This is not desirable.) Then it's not about spear depth so much as getting the shoulder joint forward just a tiny bit to load the lats.

My two cents - Thoughts?
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  #13  
Old 06-09-2018
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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Hello David,

Quote:
My two cents - Thoughts?
thank your very much for your comprehensive answer. Nothing against; but three thoughts

- Much more valuable than 2ct!

- Think I can find my own day-dependent optimal/efficentest stretch-level by "experienced feeling" and FP-like awareness. The objective measurements are between plus-minus (half) a stroke, so I have to trust the feeling more. Do you know (micro-)FPs to get it more objective?

- Especially with my older students we sometimes find limits of movement and/or force. I always tell them not to go to the limits of pain but to the limit of freedom from pain. Most times performance-oriented men will always take the first. Do you know hands-on how and in which moment I can realize when I should help to stop... at the earlier/healthier limit?

Best regards,
Werner
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  #14  
Old 06-10-2018
CoachDavidShen CoachDavidShen is offline
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- Much more valuable than 2ct!
Ha thanks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by WFEGb View Post
- Think I can find my own day-dependent optimal/efficentest stretch-level by "experienced feeling" and FP-like awareness. The objective measurements are between plus-minus (half) a stroke, so I have to trust the feeling more. Do you know (micro-)FPs to get it more objective?
As mentioned, I think it depends on the skill/experience/mobility level of the person. For most of my clients, it is better that they do not feel any strain at all when they put their arm out front in spear. That guarantees that their posture is not changed and they can maintain it from SG or Torpedo. Then I work with them on dryland with breathing and intra-abdominal pressure generation along with shoulder mobility and eventually it becomes higher.

If all of their movements are coordinated well, then they will be able to act on the natural stretch of muscles and fascia to store and release energy.

I have also found that there is a risk in going for stretch as that can put them in a muscle position that can be strained. Muscle function at the end ranges of motion can be trained but if you aren't trained for that, you could pull something. Eccentric loading is more demanding on the muscles than concentric. It could also make you more sore than you would have been otherwise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WFEGb View Post
- Especially with my older students we sometimes find limits of movement and/or force. I always tell them not to go to the limits of pain but to the limit of freedom from pain. Most times performance-oriented men will always take the first. Do you know hands-on how and in which moment I can realize when I should help to stop... at the earlier/healthier limit?
Training philosophy in general is screwed up. With things like Crossfit and HIIT, we think that we need to be in pain to make gains. It is very false. I just attended a great workshop called StrongEndurance which brings together all the research from decades ago to now on why people should not train in the pain/redline zone, if they want to protect their longevity in the sport and their overall health.

For most people it is so ingrained in them that they cannot break away from it. And in the short term they will see gains. In the long run, they will plateau and flirt with injury, perhaps even develop heart conditions. There is research that shows that some talented athletes can grow their performance 2-3x in a year. But then drop out because they cannot sustain this awesome performance because they trained too hard without proper base building.

There are no consistent signals throughout because it is dependent on the phase of training they are in. Research has shown that in order to have a great performance in a race, you must experience race conditions prior to the event. This is known to us as peaking. So during peaking, you'd maybe ignore some of the signals you might not ignore during the pre-peak training phases.

For movement limited individuals, that is the signal there. We find the spear depth that is right before you feel tension to maintain that height and not lose torso posture. Training them to extend their movement potential can be done partly in the water, but likely is better done out of the pool in the gym and in real life.

For force limited individuals, this is really tough. I have had some clients who for various reasons could not move well enough to generate force. For them, balance is really key and finding how to manage balance without speed. And it is worthwhile to work with them out of the water to figure out why they cannot generate force. Usually it's constraints in their body that need to be addressed and that's best done out of the water.

For performance oriented people, it will take longer to break their feeling that they should go all out as often as possible. Breaking this feeling makes more sense for swimming which is more a skill activity rather than metabolic activity. There is much more they can do for speed with skill increases than working out harder in the pool. They can also test for whether they truly swim better with or without the stretch. Just put a tempo trainer on them and try a few lengths maintaining a certain spear depth with and without tension. I think they will find generally they can swim faster without tension in the spear depth than they can with it.

Also if you practice with propulsion generation of the recovering arm, it's less about the stroke back and you don't need tension in the spearing arm to do gain those benefits.
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  #15  
Old 06-10-2018
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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Hello David,

again THANK YOU! Many (re)new(ed) things to think about, work with and putting (even) more awareness in. Realized my students and my own tendency to spend all coaching time together in the water. Seems we often neglect the drylands as: You can do this or that at home by your own...

Best regards,
Werner

PS: We can do what we want. As Terry said: Balance is the most important foundation...
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  #16  
Old 06-10-2018
CoachDavidShen CoachDavidShen is offline
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Originally Posted by WFEGb View Post
Hello David,

again THANK YOU! Many (re)new(ed) things to think about, work with and putting (even) more awareness in. Realized my students and my own tendency to spend all coaching time together in the water. Seems we often neglect the drylands as: You can do this or that at home by your own...

Best regards,
Werner

PS: We can do what we want. As Terry said: Balance is the most important foundation...
You're welcome! Raising my own education level to fix the issues that swimmers face in their body has been a long but fruitful journey. Happy to provide other resources or give you my perspective on problems you may encounter.
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  #17  
Old 06-10-2018
Danny Danny is offline
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I'll throw in my on 2 cents about spearing depth. I think a lot of us are unaware of how much the depth of our spear influences the curvature of our spine. If you spear high enough to mess up your spinal alignment, that's bad. There's a simple test you can do to get an idea of how high this should be. Stand with your back against the wall and try to make your posture as erect as possible, so that as much of your back is flat against the wall as possible. Now slowly raise your arm into spearing position. At some point you will start to note your back pulling away from the wall. You should try to spear below this point in order to keep your spinal alignment straight.
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  #18  
Old 06-11-2018
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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Hello David and Danny,

I deleted this paragraph, because the given hint/link seems to be problematic in several soints. Please excuse for eventually caused confusion!

Danny, thank you very much, it's a very good hint for realizing the influenz of spearing to spine and posture... and if a student does try it on an corner or a pillar I can see from outside when the spine starts to bend (more). BTW bending the knees a little bit or heels 3cm off the wall helps to hold equilibrium against the arms in front.

... have to pay more attention to the dryland exercises...

Thanks and best regards,
Werner

Last edited by WFEGb : 06-15-2018 at 09:17 AM. Reason: Necessary correction :-(
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  #19  
Old 06-11-2018
Danny Danny is offline
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Hi Werner,

My personal suspicion about all this discussion that spearing deeper helps keep your legs up amounts to the simple observation that, if you spear too high, your spine arcs and it ruins your alignment. So it's not really the weight of the arm up front, or anything like that. Spear wherever you want as long as you can keep a straight spine, and you'll be OK. As soon as your spine starts to bend, your legs will also drop.
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  #20  
Old 06-11-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
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my back felt better and my glide got faster in breaststroke when i speared deeper

re frestyle i found i can spear very high in 3/4 catch up timing with straight arm recovery because i get weight of both arms over the front
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