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  #11  
Old 03-15-2015
sclim sclim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
Avarage male density is about half a head above water with full lungs.
He has about about half a head above water and that same volume floating above his lungs also, so a full head above water, which is way above avarage.
If he would straighten his back he could use the buoyency above his lungs even better.

I feel almost sorry for Sclim letting him see this footage.
At least he can become balanced, only riding lower in the water.
I definitely feel sorry for myself watching this footage lol!
Actually, the only way I can achieve balance is with some forward progress and some velocity. On my push-off from the wall in streamline position, it starts off ok, but as my velocity decays my legs gradually sink, even with studiously keeping my head and chest low under the water surface, and no amount of chest pressing down can seem to rescue this situation. Am I missing something (apart from generalized buoyancy)?
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  #12  
Old 03-20-2015
wie wie is offline
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It is explained here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oW5nE5FBPsQ

Read the comments.
They are not completely sure how to explain this in theory.

EDIT: Sorry wrong link at first!

Last edited by wie : 03-20-2015 at 04:36 PM.
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  #13  
Old 03-20-2015
Tom Pamperin Tom Pamperin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wie View Post
It is explained here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oW5nE5FBPsQ

Read the comments.
They are not completely sure how to explain this in theory.

EDIT: Sorry wrong link at first!
Thanks for the link--this is worth playing around with to see how muscle tension/engagement in legs/pelvis influences balance, I think. Could lead to some new focal points to practice.
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  #14  
Old 03-20-2015
Rincewind Rincewind is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sclim View Post
I definitely feel sorry for myself watching this footage lol!
Actually, the only way I can achieve balance is with some forward progress and some velocity. On my push-off from the wall in streamline position, it starts off ok, but as my velocity decays my legs gradually sink, even with studiously keeping my head and chest low under the water surface, and no amount of chest pressing down can seem to rescue this situation. Am I missing something (apart from generalized buoyancy)?
Actually one interesting point from that video is when he goes into skating position, even with his amazing buoyancy his head is still completely under water.

This is something that always bothered me as I can never do comfortable side breathing during skating without over-rotating. So whats the key then to executing a proper side skating drill? Do you have to be going fast enough so that the speed buoys you up? Clearly even the most buoyant people can not do it while standing still.
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  #15  
Old 03-21-2015
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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again that semi nonsense clip. the only thing that keeps you level in the end is making your body as straight as possible and distribute the parts that are sticking out the water evenly.
The stiffness of the body makes sure the parts that are sticking out can leverage through the body to keep it horizontal.
The lungs must be pushed under with a straight back to make most use of the available buoyancy.
With that buoy to work with, parts at the greatest distance of that buoy can be set to work to balance around that buoy, but only when there is enough body tone to keep the lever from extremity to buoy in shape.
See how he balances. He sticks his hands a little above water, where the weight is about 10fold the weight under water.
He has to tone his hand to his buoy to use this lenght as a lever.
If the feet reach the surface its the end of rotating hands down and feet up, because lifting the feet out of the water is impossible with that long lever from feet to buoy.
So with bodytone a equilibrium is found where body parts just touch the surface, evenly distributed around the buoy pivot point.
Minimal shifting of center of gravity between banana or straight body. Its about using the parts that are above the water and leveraging them that keeps the body horizontal.

You could say he is right if you consider the sum of the forces have to go through the center of buoyancy.
If you add up the gravitational forces of the parts above and under water and call this the center of gravity , than its indeed possible to shift that center of gravity.
That can be achieved by sticking more parts at a longer lever above the water at the arms end of the body instead of the legs end.
Same story again about balancing torques around the center of buoyancy.

If you have big lungs you can even get very heavy legs up by lifting the hands out the water. Deflate the lungs from this point and the hands sink, they cannot give any counterbalance to the heavy legs anymore and the legs sink.

Rincewind.
Thats indeed the case. A straight spine and head with the body rotated 90 degrees perhaps rings the arm above water, but that brings the ater level to your armpit.
When I turn my head to the side the armpit is further fron the centerline than ny nouth. So, I cant reach the watersurface with my mouth.
Thats the trouble with superslow swimming.You have to rotate more to get to air, but if you really are level and inline, you also rotate the center of the head down with that rotation.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 03-21-2015 at 02:23 AM.
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  #16  
Old 03-21-2015
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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The brazadas viruosas guy is a better swimmer.
Wow, how supple he moves his arms without disturbing his balance...
Less buoyant than the 4 strokes guy, but better bodyline, much better pull.
Cant do much better than this I think
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRTYa1-AIXA

(is this Matt?)

Last edited by Zenturtle : 03-21-2015 at 08:36 AM.
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  #17  
Old 03-21-2015
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wie View Post
It is explained here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oW5nE5FBPsQ

Read the comments.
They are not completely sure how to explain this in theory.

EDIT: Sorry wrong link at first!
They don't understand physics very well then. other commenters on the video and ZT have explained it quite well.

I don't think the hyper arched position is obtainable by some,b ut if you CAN find it and sense it it's added body awareness. The difficult part of traying to integreat that video into full stroke swimming is the hand position in front will lead to slowing down
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  #18  
Old 03-22-2015
sclim sclim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
They don't understand physics very well then. other commenters on the video and ZT have explained it quite well.

I don't think the hyper arched position is obtainable by some,b ut if you CAN find it and sense it it's added body awareness. The difficult part of traying to integreat that video into full stroke swimming is the hand position in front will lead to slowing down
@CoachSuzanne: do I understand correctly from your comment above that this stationary balance position is a bit of a trick that only works (at least in stationary position) for semi-sinkers when the hands are fully extended and out of the water at the full length of the lever to counteract the rotational moment of the heavy legs (on the other side of the pivot -- the center of buoyancy) from sinking themselves.

In whole stroke swimming, firstly, ahead of the shoulders, you only get one hand at a time above the water to play with. Secondly, by the time you get to the full ahead position (the longest lever), this hand is under water, robbing it of its greatest downward force (weight not immersed in water). The furthest ahead you can get and still be out of the water, i.e. to the point of hand entry, is only a little ahead of the temple. Therefore the full effect of this method to balance can not be achieved in whole stroke swimming. Am I correct on this?

(Is it worthwhile to try and shift the hand entry point a little more forward to fully exploit the weight of the arm above water level with a more effective lever? -- or does this just create further problems that are worse?)
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