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  #21  
Old 11-08-2009
haschu33 haschu33 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by westyswoods View Post
...
1. I am seeing air before breathing
2. Breathing is not being initiated from core rotation
3. Spearing hand is digging too deep on breath cycles
4. Legs do a tremendous scissors kick either side and lower body moves way out of streamline.
5. Way over rotated to point of shoulders being almost 90 degrees
6. Am not keep a patient spearing hand
7. I noticed there is a tremendous right side/left side muscle difference. Most likely proves not swimming from core.
8. My kick is still much a runners kick and very much so of breath cycles.
Welcome to the club! Isn't it shocking at first sight? It almost depressed me...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike from NS View Post
I'm strongly right handed and breathing to the right requires greater effort.
I am strongly right handed and breathing to the right is fairly easy, to the left is the problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by terry View Post
One suggestion not yet made is to use the Nodding drill ... to imprint the patient leading hand.
I went to the pool today and had to be very careful, my shoulders are a borderline case, specially the left one, after been in the water yesterday for 3 hours (I feel a little but sharp pain when I pull instead of just anchoring and when I spear with a non-relaxed hand - the stiff hand moves up and my shoulders hurts - TI friendly shoulders. Or better - TI is shoulder friendly, when done correctly), so I did effortless, nice drills. Mainly nodding drills up to those double stroke with a breath in between. Sometimes I did some full stroke in between - and yes, it really helps! On the right side I sometimes manage not to rise the head at all, and the left is getting way better, too.
Good help!

Another beer to Terry, I guess...

Last edited by haschu33 : 11-08-2009 at 02:46 PM.
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  #22  
Old 11-08-2009
Mike from NS Mike from NS is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haschu33 View Post
I am strongly right handed and breathing to the right is fairly easy, to the left is the problem.
haschu33,
You may have destroyed my theory ... well at least you have delivered a hit !!

Take a look at this video about extending to air. I think it may apply to this thread. The narrator sounds somewhat like Terry ... but is it???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LqqN...eature=related

Mike
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  #23  
Old 11-08-2009
elk-tamer elk-tamer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike from NS View Post
haschu33,
You may have destroyed my theory ... well at least you have delivered a hit !!

Take a look at this video about extending to air. I think it may apply to this thread. The narrator sounds somewhat like Terry ... but is it???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LqqN...eature=related

Mike
That didn't sound much like Terry to me. I've tried that extend to air thing, and had trouble doing it. Watching the video again, I'm having trouble even understanding it.
What does he mean by "the instinctive movement is to chop or pull with your arm as you turn for a breath" @ 27(s) into the vid? Is the point to breath while your arm is at the end of pull instead of at the start?
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  #24  
Old 11-08-2009
haschu33 haschu33 is offline
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Mike from NS,

Sorry for the maybe-ruin of your theory...

I saw this video before - it's not wrong what it is said, but it is not quite right, at least regarding the logic and the identification of cause and effect - as I see it.
The point IMHO is not 'to extend your stroke as you go for a breath' but to keep extending your stroke even when you are breathing. If you don't extend your strokes at all, there is no point to talk about breathing, extending the stroke while breathing and otherwise not would be silly, of course.
And the strange and ineffective movement of the spearing arm is the effect of a lost balance while lifting the head for air and the cure is not to trying to extend that arm, which is working on the effect, but trying not to lift the head, which is the cause.
I have that ineffective arm movement only on my left side and only when I breath - otherwise it is ok. So it is not an imprinted stroke movement but just a counteract of loosing balance.
If there is a habitual and imprinted downwards movement independent of the breath it has to be explicitly corrected, of course, but that is a different story.

The brilliant part of the video is no doubt at the end where it says: 'Even this old coach ... manages to hold great extension through his breath'.
No - it is not Terry... he is not old anyway, he is timeless...

I am wondering what is the case with me ? I am old, but not even a coach :-((

I think it is ok to say that extending the stroke is something that can be done independent of age (My mother is 89 and still plays tennis several times a week...)

@elk-tamer,

I think what could be meant is: "the instinctive movement is to chop or pull with your arm as you turn for a breath" when you loose your balance while lifting the head. At least it would be true.
The video' + comment is simply missing the point, I think.
And sometimes I am wondering what is worse: something being half right or being completely wrong.
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  #25  
Old 11-08-2009
Mike from NS Mike from NS is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haschu33 View Post
Sorry for the maybe-ruin of your theory...
haschu33,

Be not concerned over my "theory".

My understanding of the drill is similar to that of a patient catch. By extending the arm we should enhance our balance and the degree of being streamlined and also become more slippery. If in better control of balance will we not rotate in a more controlled fashion and thereby breathe more easily? I have tried this and it helps me.... but then little wouldn't help me!
And the "old coach" statement has little to do with age but I think refers to an experienced soul. Never forget "Age is but a number". And I bet you mother wins most of her tennis matches !!

Elk-tamer ... I agree with haschu33 in that the meaning is: if out of balance we tend to chop and pull when we go for air ... ( a survival instinct I feel) I have done the same as shown in the video many times .... but usually just when going for air to the right side. I have trouble keeping the left arm extended and I look like the video example. When on the right side I better maintain the extended right arm and breathe more easily to the left side.

Mike
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  #26  
Old 11-08-2009
haschu33 haschu33 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike from NS View Post
... If in better control of balance will we not rotate in a more controlled fashion and thereby breathe more easily?
I absolutely agree, also my experience.
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  #27  
Old 11-08-2009
elk-tamer elk-tamer is offline
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Yes, but exactly what does "chop and pull" mean?

Btw, my mother is only 70, but she also plays tennis a few times a week. She's also cut about 25% off her 100m time every week since watching the "Easy Freestyle" DVD. She's still over 3:00, but at this rate she'll be faster than Phelps by next spring. Age means less in the pool than many places.
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  #28  
Old 11-08-2009
Mike from NS Mike from NS is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elk-tamer View Post
Yes, but exactly what does "chop and pull" mean?
I take "chop and pull" to describe frantic movements to try to re-gain control. At least this is what they mean when I'm the one chopping and pulling!

Maybe there is a tennis match of the mothers of TI followers in the future??

Mike
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  #29  
Old 11-09-2009
Janos Janos is offline
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Hi Westy,

In my reply to your original question, I suggested returning head to face down position slightly before your shoulder starts rotating.

Let me expand my theory a bit more! when you are swimming whole stroke, the TI way, and are not taking a breath, your core rotates along its long axis, with the head remaining in a neutal position. Problems start to occur when we want air!

Of course, we follow our shoulder to take the breath..but if you follow your shoulder back with your head, that forces the opposite hand down, and makes for a clumsy re-entry of the recovery hand.

You must take your breath, and turn your head independently of your shoulder back to the water, and when your recovery is complete, pierce the water in total control, with your balance restored.

Personally, I think the only solution to your problem is to stop whole stroke swimming, and drill your way through this. There are some issues which are non-negotiable...there can be no crossover, and no dropping of the arm when you take a breath. Both can be resolved with rotation and balance drills.

I also think catch up drills are unnecessary. There is a trigger point for front quadrant swimming, you should find your mark, and stick with it.

Hope this helps..and look forward to more interesting debate.

Janos
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  #30  
Old 11-09-2009
westyswoods westyswoods is offline
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Good Morning Janos

Thanks for the explanation and yes that is exactly my plan. After viewing video whole stroke is on the back burner until I can get this down. I do have a much better idea of what needs to be done and how to accomplish through this forum. Going to pool now and drill will give an update to all when I get home. Thanks

Westy
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