Total Immersion Forums  

Go Back   Total Immersion Forums > Freestyle
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old 11-07-2009
terry terry is offline
Head Coach
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,305
terry has disabled reputation
Default

One suggestion not yet made is to use the Nodding drill - Lesson 6 of Easy Freestyle DVD - to imprint the patient leading hand.

In this drill, you practice a not-quite breath on several cycles before taking an actual one. Rotate and move your head in the direction of a breath but without clearing your mouth above the surface. In fact rotate far enough to peek just over the surface with your leading eye. You'll find that because you've relieved yourself of the need to get air you can turn your attention elsewhere. In this instance to keeping the leading elbow forward, high and outside, and a relaxed hand hanging with fingers down. Feel a lightness there. Feel it be still for a moment - until your gaze begins to return to the bottom.

When you do take the breath be observant about what changes. Keep practicing until nothing changes.
__________________
Terry Laughlin
Head Coach & Chief Executive Optimist

May your laps be as happy as mine.

My TI Story
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 11-07-2009
CoachDave's Avatar
CoachDave CoachDave is offline
Coach
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 249
CoachDave
Default Head follow?

The head shouldn't follow the body, or lead the body- it should be part of the body. In skating, the body takes the head to air, and when people take the shortcut of just lifting the head, they wonder why it seems to sink them,
When first developing in drills, the head rolls with the body from sweet spot, but later on, the position it is in facing down in the skate after each stroke IS the breathing position- it doesn't turn on its own but hold form with the body during rotation. It does turn down early after so as to not hinder the roll back to the next skate.
__________________
Dave Cameron
Total Immersion Master Coach
Head Coach- Minneapolis YWCA Otters and Masters and MN Tri Masters
www.ywcampls.org/ti
www.ywcampls.org/otters
www.distancedave.com
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 11-07-2009
haschu33 haschu33 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Posts: 787
haschu33
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by vol View Post
... Now comes the next stroke: right hand starts catch, left hand extends forward, then as soon as right hand begin to make pull, left hand immediately drops, as if there is a string connecting left arm and left torso (or perhaps connecting left hand and right hand?) that draws the left arm down. In order to balance myself in this position, my right elbow has to be really high, so that I become overrotated (with left arm awkwardly pointing down). Next stroke, the right arm extends forward, I'm save from the imbalance again. So on and so forth...
Is it possible that you mix up cause and effect ?
If your left arm goes down it is quite likely that it is compensating imbalance, not the other way round. So you might be simply over-rotating when you spear your left arm, arm too low e.g.. And the right elbow is too high on recovery because you are over-rotated already and it adds even more to over-rotation, forcing the left arm to compensate even more. If you are over-rotating usually your legs do a scissors like movement, the lower leg goes back to prevent from over-rotating even more and the upper one counteracts to the lower one in going forward. So in your case your left leg could be moving backwards when the left arm is down, is that the case?
Maybe try to rotate very little when the left arm spears, 45 degree at the most, and see what happens.

I am right handed too, and I have great differences on my right and left side. But the effect is different: I somehow don't 'trust' that my left arm can catch properly and so I use it somehow hesitantly and the effect is that if I stroke (=catch) with the left arm the propulsion is less as if I do it with the right.
The spearing arms do not really have a difference with me, but spearing is actually not so much related to muscle strength. The whole TI-like stroke is actually not so much depending on muscle strength that a difference in the strength will be so obvious, I think. And sometimes having less muscle power is an advantage because it forces you into a efficient technique, otherwise you cannot sustain it.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 11-07-2009
vol vol is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 175
vol
Default

haschu33, thank you for your input. It is possible. I am open to all possible causes as it is my priority to solve this problem. Next time I swim I will pay attention to what you said and report back.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 11-07-2009
elk-tamer elk-tamer is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Calgary
Posts: 102
elk-tamer
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Janos View Post
Hi Westy,

I too suffered from my arm dropping when I went for air, but curiously only on a left side breath.

I resolved the situation by accident. Terry has spoken of the weightless arm. This occurs because your core drives the stroke. Your arms are just part of a chain of events that start from your hips. So as you swim, you must 'see' your hips as the main propulsive force, this then allows you to free your arms, relax them, and tense them only momentarily when in 'catch' mode as your hip drive acts against your vertical hold on the water to propel you.

My left sided problem was not just dropping the leading right arm, but I was also aware of a more clumsy entry with my recovering arm when taking a breath. Once I started 'seeing' my core as a vessel, that moved independently from my arms, I started taking the breath, and returning to a face down position fractionly before my shoulder started to return...I feel this point may be essential, as it allows you to fully focus on a clean arm entry. This then balances out your stroke, and you swim cleanly and silently. The total focus on rotation ,makes your arm action weightless, you don't lean on your extending arm, and it allows a fully relaxed recovery, and ultimately, a sublime swimming experience!

This has been a recent discovery for me, and perhaps that final big 'eureka' moment in my freestyle journey! I can now focus totally on subtley refining my stroke.

I hope that helps in some way.

Kind Regards

Janos
Janos, I tried this today. ->"returning to a face down position fractionally before my shoulder started to return". It made a huge difference, thanks.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 11-08-2009
westyswoods westyswoods is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Rio, Wisconsin
Posts: 564
westyswoods
Default

Thanks to all who responded.

Video was taken today and perception does not match reality. OUCH My breath strokes are actually much worse than I thought. The reponses have been great. Putting the tape and responses together several focal points become clear.

1. I am seeing air before breathing
2. Breathing is not being initiated from core rotation
3. Spearing hand is digging too deep on breath cycles
4. Legs do a tremendous scissors kick either side and lower body moves way out of
streamline.
5. Way over rotated to point of shoulders being almost 90 degrees
6. Am not keep a patient spearing hand
7. I noticed there is a tremendous right side/left side muscle difference. Most likely proves not swimming from core.
8. My kick is still much a runners kick and very much so of breath cycles.

The good piece to this puzzle is my nonbreath cycle strokes show some semblence of a TI stroke. Back to the pool Monday with focus nodding, patient hand, head core alingment and rotation. Does this sound right. Any other suggestions.

In closing I would like to edit the video down and post on this site if possible for feedback. Being a neandrathal of tech help. What is the procedure or best way?

Thanks and Happy Trails To You Westy

Last edited by westyswoods : 11-08-2009 at 11:29 AM. Reason: Inadvertant quick post
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 11-08-2009
Mike from NS Mike from NS is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 551
Mike from NS
Default The learning curve of swimming....

Some time ago I asked if handedness had any affect on the favoured breathing side. The answer was there was little to no evidence of this.

However, I feel there may be some emerging evidence as seen through this thread. I'm strongly right handed and breathing to the right requires greater effort. On breathing to the right, I likely have over-rotated, since I know it is more difficult for me to get air to that side and I want to be sure my mouth is clear of the water. This likely adds to a poor balanced state which I try to compensate for by a pull with the left arm which as many have said crosses the centre line beneath me. A survival instinct perhaps.

What has helped is really focusing on making sure I keep the left arm outstretched after the spear. This I think keeps me in better posture and balance. I have to keep this in mind whereas I seem to have no problem in this area with keeping the right arm out stretched --- and breathing to the left is much easier and smoother without much thought. So ... it is all part of the learning curve.
__________________
If you're not swimming; then you should be skiing......
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 11-08-2009
elk-tamer elk-tamer is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Calgary
Posts: 102
elk-tamer
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by westyswoods View Post
In closing I would like to edit the video down and post on this site if possible for feedback. Being a neandrathal of tech help. What is the procedure or best way?
You'll need to upload the video to a website like youtube or vimeo, and then just post the link here. Vimeo has a way to password protect your videos in case you don't want them to be public.

That assumes though that you took the video with a digital camera and have the video file on your computer.

To edit it down, it will depend which operating system your computer is, i.e. Windows Vista, Windows XP, Mac, etc.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 11-08-2009
westyswoods westyswoods is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Rio, Wisconsin
Posts: 564
westyswoods
Default

Mike,

Hypothetically I can see why there should be little effect from handedness. I can see where this is valid when one can swim the TI way. Step back and think of someone who has swam for decades with no concept of propulsion from core with arms being used for the main movement through pulling. Unwinding the muscle memory and has to play a major role in learning to swim the TI way. The disparate strength R vs L has to factor in. Flexibility and coordination are two which will go hand in hand with this issue.
The knee bone connected to the shin bone, shin bone connected to the ankle bone....

Thanks for the suggestions.

Have a great day
Westy
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 11-08-2009
Mike from NS Mike from NS is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 551
Mike from NS
Default when theory and nature disagree ... nature is not the looser

Quote:
Originally Posted by westyswoods View Post
Hypothetically I can see why there should be little effect from handedness. I can see where this is valid when one can swim the TI way.
Westy,

I agree with you. It (core driven swimming) is a concept which is sometimes difficult to grasp - especially for the beginner - for this beginner anyway. Natural instincts always want to take over. I'm 56 and first started learning to swim three years ago through a recreation department beginner's lesson set. (Not the way to go - at least for me!) I had and have no pre-conceived techniques or methods regrading swimming. So I'm fighting instincts learned over a number of years. Also, not being able to get a consistent or frequent practice time table established makes the learning take longer. It is a "mind over matter" mindset we have to adopt at times, it seems. I'm sure that if I hadn't found Total Immersion (through Terry's book at the local library), I would have given up swimming after the first few lessons. And as you say, there are a lot of very helpful people here. They are all experiencing the joy of sharing knowledge.

Mike
__________________
If you're not swimming; then you should be skiing......
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are Off
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 07:31 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.