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  #91  
Old 09-02-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
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as dave cameron says in that video posted earlier
it goes from narrow to wide & back to narrow
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  #92  
Old 09-06-2018
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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Hello especially ZT and Mushroomfloat,

Advocating Stuart's, don't overcomplicate things in the pool, I do like these thoughts and IMO sometimes hairsplittings very much as translation-exercise and intellectual games (failing in both sometimes...). And if they're helpful in anyway in anyone's swimming, great!

What I'm interested in:

- How long are you trying to include and test all these finesses?
- How do you decide, I'm failing with that or I do that right?
- Do you create FPs where you work on?
- In which point do you decide: Good to hold or not worthy to work further with (out of which ever reasons)?
- How do you isolate these fine tunings from the environment of the whole stroke these high-performance swimmers are swimming aside your actual points of interest?
- What are the reasons and how do you offer these things to your students?
- Are you discussing these things in non-TI-Forums too, and how are the threads, with what results, running there?
- And how did you create your 48hours-day to find and analyze all these things? (That's the most important quesiton ;-) )

Best regards,
Werner
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  #93  
Old 09-06-2018
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Wow, that are a lot of questions to answer.
Basically I have used the TI forum as a diary to describe the focal points I have stumbled upon, and the focal points i am interested in and trying out at that moment.

As with all those focal points, they come and they go.
Weight on catch is an old thing that caught my attention when recovering more over the top and bringing the shoulder with arm forward more and feeling that weight press on the the low side arm.
The differnt recovery action also disturbed the rotational balance, so I had to search for a new balance. It also became obvious that that weight combined with a stable downward low arm gave a certain downward glide effect which reminded me of the feeling of surfing down from a wave, so calling it `surfing the recovery weight`.
That was a some time ago. The novelty wears off. You work on other things that dont work as well as on your best swims, and after a while you rediscover the same things again, only from a slightly improved total package.
That process goes on and on until there is nothing left to improve, which moment never comes.

- How long are you trying to include and test all these finesses?

swimming is mainly balancing all the forces all the time. This means that you are a little unbalanced most of the time and constantly trying to figure out what movement is causing the imbalance you just felt.
Its like riding on a bike where you never drive in a perfectly straight line. You are always adjusting a bit.
Swimming is a bit the same, but 10 times more complicated, which makes it interesting at the same time.
So to answer the question. I am always including and testing these finesses, some unconcious, others conscious.

- How do you decide, I'm failing with that or I do that right?
Mostly, when combining common sense and proprioception, what feels right is right.
You have to add a lot of common sense, knowing what is an effective movement and what is an automatic , easy movement.
For example. kicking from the knee is easy and can feel powerful, but you know its not the best movement pattern, and you hopëfully have enough self awareness to know when you are kicking from the knee.
So whan you observe, he, You are kicking from the knee there, stop that action immediately, and ask yourself, why am i doing that?
Mostly its someting at the front thats causing it, or you are just lazy and take the easy (short term)way out.
Same with the high elbow catch stuff. This is such an unnatural movement thats it doesnt come naturally if you just do what feels the most comfortable. The most comfortable is pulling with a dropped elbow.
So that requires repeating that movement forcefully untill it starts to feel natural.
I dont agree with the idea that it happens naturally, because 95-99% of the swimmers dont get it right, including most swim coaches.
How do you know you get it right? YOu dont know if you get it perfectly right, but you do know if you have improved upon your former action.You know that you have improved it a bit. You know your movement is differnt, you know the differnt feeling that belongs to that differnt movement.
When you focus on one aspect of your stroke, you can improve that part a bit, remenber the sensation it gives and repeat it the next time (if you swim often enough to not forget it in the mean time)

Still want to hear more Wermer?


Probably the most important question for most: is all that hair splitting making you faster?
Hmm. I dont know. People with real swim talent pick up all the cues they need along the way without thinking much about it. Swimming a lot is enough for them.
Probably I am thinking a bit too much. If all the time thinking about it was spent in the pool, I probably was swimming better/faster, but i wouldnt know what I was doing.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 09-06-2018 at 11:19 PM.
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  #94  
Old 09-07-2018
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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Hello ZT,

thank you for taking time and effort for such a long answer! (Although I once again deducted from the topic...) But now I think I've got a better picture of your swim-work in and out of the pool. Your 48hours-day remains a miracle... Understand, you wan't tell all your secrets in an open forum :-)

Quote:
...That was a some time ago. The novelty wears off. You work on other things that dont work as well as on your best swims, and after a while you rediscover the same things again, only from a slightly improved total package...
That's what I do like so much and what (Terry/TI in my case) presented to make swimming such an interesting sport. Same things, same words (the illusion) of correct understanding... totally different a year later in a (hopefully) upward spiral...

Quote:
...Its like riding on a bike where you never drive in a perfectly straight line. You are always adjusting a bit.
Swimming is a bit the same, but 10 times more complicated, which makes it interesting at the same time...
Will confirm it 100%! (Might be a historical event :-) )

Quote:
...Mostly, when combining common sense and proprioception, what feels right is right.
You have to add a lot of common sense, knowing what is an effective movement and what is an automatic , easy movement...
Damned, wished I could say the same about my own skills! All my hopes are in Kaizen. (Just had a somersault-back, when I had to whatch my owns stroke in a short video-sequence again since some years...)

Quote:
...Still want to hear more Wermer?...
Seems I'm allowed: Do you have a sequence of FPs you're working on, like TI's BSP, or do they bop up and vanish dayly/weekly/monthly?

Quote:
...People with real swim talent pick up all the cues they need along the way without thinking much about it...
Sigh... But sometimes I console myself that our work is much more interesting...

Thank you ZT and best regards,
Werner
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  #95  
Old 09-07-2018
Danny Danny is offline
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Hi ZT, I too liked your answers to Werner's philosophical questions. Your answers all resonated with me. I am at an age now where my conditioning gets continually worse. Last spring I had a health crisis that kept me out of the pool for some time, and when I got back in I had lost a lot of ground. Since then I have gained some of it back, but I know from past experience that I will never get all of it back. I recently spoke with a friend who is a long time runner, and he told me the same thing. He had an injury, had to sit out for some time, and he knows he will never quite get back what he lost from that time out.

So all of this fits into the picture of what I am trying to do with my technique analysis. I have the feeling that I may be swimming with better technique now than ever before, even though I am slower. In particular, Stuart's suggestion to get forearm fulcrums has made a big difference and I have the feeling that I have cleaned up a lot of my dropped elbow problems to an extent that I never had before. This feels great, and it has allowed me to start playing around with some other issues that I could never really get into without dropping my elbow. Lately I have been swimming in lakes and I have achieved a degree of effortlessness that I'm not sure I ever had before over distance. All of this is a lot of fun, and I like to believe that I am slowing down the rate at which I slow down, even if I haven't been able to reverse the trend.

So, Werner, I know you didn't ask me these questions, but that's my input, for whatever it's worth.
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  #96  
Old 09-07-2018
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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Hello Danny,

Quote:
So, Werner, I know you didn't ask me these questions, but that's my input, for whatever it's worth.
Thank you very much for jumping in! Seems we're in the same age-group with very similar experience in aging and swimming. Not being alone with such somewhat disregard things feels like a kind of help. When thinking about I do admire Terry even more.

In the beginning of the year I did it and worked regularly through one of Mat's 12-weeks-courses, starting in very bad shape and succeeded nearly to reach my state three years ago or so. Then I had to be off the pool for three weeks (holydays and more or less small illnesses are much more often then 30years ago...)... Resulted in a shape as before the course started... And worse, a video from last weeks showed that my stroke didn't improve as I hoped (and felt) before.

So much (interesting!) inner and outer things to learn!

Best regards,
Werner

Last edited by WFEGb : 09-07-2018 at 09:07 PM. Reason: English orthography :-/
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  #97  
Old 09-07-2018
sclim sclim is offline
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Haha, so glad to hear that 3 of my mentors whose insights and advice have helped so much still have frustrations and setbacks like I do. And somewhat humbled by the knowledge that you guys are performing and allegedly experiencing setbacks at a much higher performance level than I do.

I spent this morning at the track, attending to running speed tuneup to address absolute speed issues that have fallen into decline in this past season of focussing on running endurance in support of my IronMan attempt (BTW I completed my first IronMan at Mont Tremblant August 19). Placed 2nd in 70 age group. 1hr 45 minute 3.8k swim, which included a somewhat long beach walk and stair climb to get to the Wet-Suit peelers. So not a fast swim by any means, but I arrived at the bike start in very good shape.

But I have to admit, despite my frustration at slow progress in swimming, I am better than I was last year -- in that I can do lengths with less perceived effort and still maintain some semblance of lower SPL than before. So the combined effects of insight, putting insight into actual mechanical followthrough and practice, and then solidifying this with mindful repetition had actually paid off slowly but steadily. And I will continue to work on this in the same fashion.

Last edited by sclim : 09-07-2018 at 07:21 PM.
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  #98  
Old 09-07-2018
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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Hello Sclim,

congratulation! Great results and improvement beyond the middle age. Planting some more hope in me.

Thought I'm the senior of age (aside Grant who posts only rarely), but now I'm pleased there are still some more "silver-surfers" in the forum.

Also very interesting that you as an IronMan are putting some time in to improve your swimming. Just talked with a coach-colleague who is coaching triathletes and he said there's no interest in swimming, because improvement needs too much time to pay off and it's better been put in cycling and running... Your's is an other story...

ZT, excuse, again far off your thread's theme.

Best regards,
Werner

PS: Should my old dream of TI-Silver-Surfer's meeting bop up again?
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  #99  
Old 09-09-2018
sclim sclim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WFEGb View Post
Also very interesting that you as an IronMan are putting some time in to improve your swimming. Just talked with a coach-colleague who is coaching triathletes and he said there's no interest in swimming, because improvement needs too much time to pay off and it's better been put in cycling and running... Your's is an other story...
From a purely time-management competition-improvement point of view, there may be some logic in that mathematical model. After all, for the mainstream type of swimmer who is slowish, and swims the 3.8km open water leg in 1:45, to improve to 1:15 would take a huge increase in effort and training hardening, all for a 30 minute reduction in a 15 hour race, at a tremendous energy and effort cost, which might well cause a penalty in the form of slowness in bike or running leg because of the exhaustion of the extra swim effort.

But firstly, I'm not a mainstream swimmer. As a TI swimmer, I recognize that I'm still on the steep end of the inefficiency curve. Therefore there is relatively easy tapping of further potential gains in efficiency, i.e. I believe this is low-lying fruit ready to be harvested from the energy viewpoint. That it may be difficult mentally does not bother me -- the difficulty will only be upfront and once the skill puzzles are gradually solved I will be rejoicing in new-found co-ordination and "easy speed" (haha, does it seem like I'm dreaming in technicolor?).

But seriously, I really believe this. And even if improvement in swimming speed is slow, improvement of my Ironman time is not the only driving motivation in my life. I find any intrinsic improvement in my swimming smoothness and efficiency very satisfying, no matter how long it takes me to acquire each further step, because each improvement in efficiency, once acquired through better balance and timing, is permanent. That is why I find listening in to conversations and discussion on threads like this so fascinating. Even if I don't always understand at the time all the subtleties that are being discussed, I make a mental note of a feeling or a timing distinction that is mentioned but which I have not yet grasped or felt, so that if in the future I experience it, I will know what it is.
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  #100  
Old 09-09-2018
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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Hello Sclim,

lets me stay a bit jealous aside :-) Seems you've found your Kaizen-way as multi-laned highway, while mine often seems to be a barely visible (although highly interesting) path through the undergrowth.

Let's participate.

Best regards and joyful work (mainly with TI-strokes),
Werner
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