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  #51  
Old 07-31-2013
terry terry is offline
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Originally Posted by Richardsk View Post
Times of around 38 or 39 seconds for 25 meters and SPL of 19 or 20, so definite room for going slower and probably for reduction in SPL.

This could be a very interesting project.
Richard
I believe I can make it more interesting--and illuminating--yet.
What is your height, if I may ask?

If we take time and SPL at 38 sec and 19 strokes, your Tempo is
38 minus 4.5 (pushoff time) = 33.5 sec stroking time.
Divided by 19 = Tempo of 1.76.

So in your case, Tempo is quite slow enough already. Better to start pushing left button on Tempo Trainer and work patiently down toward 1.3 or faster. You could allow weeks for that.

Once I know your height I'll be able to provide some advice on what to do with SPL.
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  #52  
Old 07-31-2013
Caro Caro is offline
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I am finding the idea of comparing slowest and fastest times interesting but after reading Terry and Suzanne's posts am feeling a bit sceptical of the slow times. It is easy to determine fastest time but how do you define slowest time? If I am walking I can walk at a slow relaxing pace but I can also do a very very slow walk. I tried a slomo walk across the 5 yds of my kitchen and managed to do this in 1m15s with a continuous movement, I expect with practice I could go even slower. I decided to have a go at slow swimming in the pool today, swimming is a little different to walking in that when you walk you can determine how long your pace is, it is a bit harder to control how far you go forward when swimming.

The following was done in a 25m pool with a 5m push off.

I started with an experimental 50m of warm-up pace, this took 57s spl 21.
then 500m warm-up 10m8s spl 21.



2x 50m fast 43s spl 21/22

For the slow 50's I tried tt 1.7 this was 59s spl 15
tt 1.6 was 56s spl15/16

I then decided these were not slow enough so ditched the tt and
did slow 50's with as little pressure as I could manage in
1m15s, 1m16s and 1m21s all spl 12.

The slow ones were all done with my definition of slow swimming as at least one arm moving at all times. Not a lot of kicking though.
I think for me this disproves Suzanne's statement that lower spl requires stronger effort. It does if you want to go at higher speeds but not if you are going really slowly.
I was however surprised that I could not go any slower.
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  #53  
Old 07-31-2013
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caro View Post
I am finding the idea of comparing slowest and fastest times interesting but after reading Terry and Suzanne's posts am feeling a bit sceptical of the slow times.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caro View Post
The slow ones were all done with my definition of slow swimming as at least one arm moving at all times.
That's the idea...

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Originally Posted by Caro View Post
It is easy to determine fastest time but how do you define slowest time?
I wouldn't say so though. Unless you're trained as a sprinter (at least minimally), I doubt that this 43s be your fastest time. There maybe a 35s hidden somewhere...

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Originally Posted by Caro View Post
swimming is a little different to walking
Yeah it is.

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Originally Posted by Caro View Post
I then decided these were not slow enough so ditched the tt and did slow 50's with as little pressure as I could manage in
1m15s, 1m16s and 1m21s all spl 12.
Now that's slow! But still, you have to realize that this 1:15 (to take a roundish number) sums up to 2:30 for a hundred, which is potentially faster than some people would dream of swimming.

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Originally Posted by Caro View Post
I think for me this disproves Suzanne's statement that lower spl requires stronger effort. It does if you want to go at higher speeds but not if you are going really slowly.
Taken at the first degree, you know, this statement taken as it is.... how should I put it. It's not entirely true. Your best was 43? Try 50sec for a 50 at 18strokes, then the same pace at 16, then at 14, then at 12. The lower the stroke count, the higher the effort to maintain this pace.

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Originally Posted by Caro View Post
I was however surprised that I could not go any slower.
I asked the same task to one of mine the other day, he couldn't go slower than 1:35/100m. He too was surprised, but not as much as the others assisting the demo.
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  #54  
Old 07-31-2013
Richardsk Richardsk is offline
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At the moment I haven't got a tempo trainer. My original model died when I left it switched on by accident and so far I have resisted the temptation to buy one of the new models, although the fact that the battery is replaceable makes it more attractive.

When I had the TT I could easily swim at tempos of 1.3 or so and tried tempos as quick as 0.9 but generally found that I didn't go any faster. As far as I remember my lowest normal SPL was at around 1.7, although I'm sure I tried tempos above 2.0.

A few years ago I could easily swim faster than 30 seconds for 25 meters from a push and my best time in a meet from a dive was 24.99. Now it is rare for me to go faster than 32 seconds from a push. I may have a chance to do a 25 meter race from a dive later in the year.

My best time for a LCM 50 is 57.41, which I swam last year. This year I failed to break the minute.

I had the impression from Charles that actually by trying to swim as slow as possible I might find parts of my stroke that need work. I am already aware of some of them. I know I can swim slower than 3 minutes for a 100 meters LC because I have done so in the later stages of a 1500. I guess I can probably swim even slower than that. I'm sure I could easily swim slower than 4 minutes per 100 swimming backstroke and could probably do so almost indefinitely if I didn't die of boredom or cold.
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  #55  
Old 08-01-2013
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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I had the impression from Charles that actually by trying to swim as slow as possible I might find parts of my stroke that need work.
And you're right. In your case, ie that of a sprinter looking to find himself, that's the idea. In your case though I am not sure that you'd need to be much slower than 1:30-1:40/50m. From there, if you're satisfied with the effort level (next to null hopefully), you try to move and feel in a way that hopefully has a favorable impact on speed (ie, the 1:40 becoming 1:35 by itself then 1:30, etc). You may find stuff, feelings, pearls. Then once in a while you may retest a flat out 50 and see if the magic works.

**edit**
I was giving this spl param a second thought. At the risk of triggering a bit of controversy, and any way I might be wrong... Standing by for correction don't hesitate.

But for the person that still can't reach perpetual, the only possible dps game available is to increase stroke count as much as possible, and the only game possible in term of stroke rate is to lower it as much as possible.

You want to be hanging on the water in perfect balance, then move your limbs as slowly as possible just enough to get little momentum, and breathe on the side. All of you that can't swim perpetually. This to me is a proof that you master balance, as theoratically, it doesn't require much momentum for human body to reach horizontal.

Speed is function of dps * rate. If you want to go faster, you shall increase at least one of them, or ideally both, if you want to go slower you have to decrease at least one of them, preferably both. Then you live in the water at lowest possible cost and you can't go wrong (as long as breathing is fine obviously).

From there you've read so much on swimming, that you can remember all these tips and start moving for prolonged durations enough to quickly catch up and go from 50 to 500 to 5000, depending on time available and real will, to trust the fact that it's possible to slow down and now sink. You can finally apply the book, everything you know.

I should film myself when I'm on a newbies' back to get him to slow down enough so that I'm satisfied. It's very hard you know, much much harder that some might think to get someone to slow down enough. I'm there with a stop watch, and ideally an underwater camera. And I look for every brusk gesture, any fast moving limb, any vigorous switch, any hard kick. And I shut all that down. Piece by piece. Can take 2 hours sometimes.

Breathing is the biggest place to look for first, heads are always to high, sometimes it's because mouth is kept wide open (that always look funny on playback, I try to get huge close shot LOL, you can see the teeth), no exhaling. So the support hand vigorously push down, costs counter balance kicking power to stay on balance, and by the window goes perpetual. These things are quite simple. Why is it so hard to slow down is less simple.

Last edited by CharlesCouturier : 08-01-2013 at 01:56 AM.
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  #56  
Old 08-01-2013
Ken B Ken B is offline
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I'm enjoying this discussion. I am 74, with the usual age related challenges. If I'm to continue to swim into my 80's ease is my main mission. This winter I've been pushing gently off the end of the pool feeling the delicious effortless glide then trying to maintain that feeling to the other end. If I achieve a clean well timed catch and rotate and spear against it as slowly as I can and maintain my original long-axis posture and tri-breath with absolutely no head lift I can drift into the far wall with no energy used at all. At risk of attracting correction from the literal (should that be littoral) s2b3, that's how it feels if I get it right. It feels even easier with backstroke. I may win Charle's prize for slow. I know I'm getting somewhere because I looked up to the gym floor this morning to find I had an audience.
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  #57  
Old 08-01-2013
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Originally Posted by Caro View Post
The slow ones were all done with my definition of slow swimming as at least one arm moving at all times. Not a lot of kicking though.
I think for me this disproves Suzanne's statement that lower spl requires stronger effort. It does if you want to go at higher speeds but not if you are going really slowly.
I was however surprised that I could not go any slower.
Naturally I hate being told that one of my statements was disproved, because every statement I make is well considered. More likely it was provided out of context. ;)

Using next to no effort at the slowest rate possible I do believe I've done 9, but that's not swimming, that's a drill really. Even if one arm is continuously moving. It was probably 30 or 31 seconds in a 25 yd pool.

To hold a low SPL at even slightly faster rates, takes strength and power...but that's a different task.

This is one of the difficulties of being asked to swim slowest...how slow is slow? where does swimming stop, even if 1 arm is always moving? Is that the definition? If so...game on!

in all seriousness, when I am swimming with clients who are slower than my slowest I find myself playing games with my body to simply swim at the same slow pace they are...things like scissoring or parachuting my legs, making my hips sink, pushing forward on the water...but for some folks, those actions ARE their current swim...and contribute to their slow. When I take those back out...I go lots faster. Some folks cant (yet) take them out...those same folks can't go real fast either and have a small delta.

IN one case, my swimmer, who was using quite some amount of energy, was so slow that I had to stop, do three veritcal jumps in the water and start swimming again to swim as slowly as he was.

It may sound like i"m making fun of him, but I'm not really...it's just more of the perplexing things that Charles is mentioning. For as fast as my slow is relative to another persons fast...there are many, many swimmers out there for whom my fast is their slow. (My fast is Terrys cruise...)
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  #58  
Old 08-01-2013
terry terry is offline
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Originally Posted by Ken B View Post
This winter I've been pushing gently off the end of the pool feeling the delicious effortless glide then trying to maintain that feeling to the other end. If I achieve a clean well timed catch and rotate and spear against it as slowly as I can and maintain my original long-axis posture and tri-breath with absolutely no head lift I can drift into the far wall with no energy used at all.
Ken, for the goals, priorities, and - yes - values you cite for your swimming, you could hardly make a better choice than the one you describe here.

I have similar goals--as well as some others. I also went to swim well, enjoy it limitlessly and even continue improving for 25 to 30 more years -- i.e. into my early 90s.

But in addition I maintain a vision of breaking the national 85-89 record for 2-mile cable swim, and contending for a FINA World Masters open water championship in the same age group in 20+ years.

My Tuneup series every day is guided by exactly the thoughts and actions you describe above. The 'side game' I add to it is in frequently timing myself when swimming that way. I consistently get faster over a series of 6 or more 100s, while maintaining the same sense of ease.

I think the frequency of timing my easiest swims is a reason why one of the 'arrows in my quiver' is the ability to swim some quite 'fast' times -- and to swim a fairly wide range of times -- while maintaining delicious ease and flow.

And regardless of those long-term goals I just cited the main reason I swim this way is that it feels so amazingly good -- in both body and psyche -- in the moment.
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  #59  
Old 08-01-2013
terry terry is offline
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Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post

To hold a low SPL at even slightly faster rates, takes strength and power...but that's a different task.

This is one of the difficulties of being asked to swim slowest...how slow is slow? where does swimming stop, even if 1 arm is always moving? Is that the definition? If so...game on!
This is clarification that's important. I should really qualify that when trying to find my slowest speed, I'm not really pursuing a goal of swimming slowly. That's not the point. Nor am I trying to lower my stroke count. I'm tracking stroke count, but not overtly trying to reduce it.

I'm trying only to (i) swim with maximum ease--which means apply featherlight pressure with hands and feet; and (ii) to control speed of recovery without 'stalling' -- I.E. feeling instability or any tiny sculling movements while trying to keep lead hand patient as other hand comes forward quite deliberately.

The more stable and streamlined I can hold my bodyline, the faster I'll cross the pool, even while aiming for ease.

Having done this so frequently, naturally I'm quite practiced at it. Swimming with consummate relaxation and ease is a skill--actually quite a high level skill. Practice it daily--as I do during Tuneup--and it will improve. It's as simple as that.

But be prepared to be lectured on the terrible error of your ways by the TI Debunkers.
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  #60  
Old 08-01-2013
Caro Caro is offline
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This is one of the difficulties of being asked to swim slowest...how slow is slow? where does swimming stop, even if 1 arm is always moving? Is that the definition? If so...game on!
That is precisely my point! How do you determine your slowest speed? I realise that Terry has attempted to answer this on the next post but when I did 1m15s with 12spl I just did a very slow motion recovery with a long glide or in TI terms a very patient lead hand. I was not unstable and did not have to scull. This is probably easier for me than some people as I am very bouyant so have no worries about sinking, but basically it was an exercise in going slow, so working from this point to faster speeds how do I work out my slowest swimming pace?

Terry describes his slowest pace as his walking pace, I would describe the pace I was doing as my snails pace. Is my walking pace the pace I can keep going at for miles, in which case it's about 27s/25m but that does require some maintainable aerobic effort?

Quote:
I wouldn't say so though. Unless you're trained as a sprinter (at least minimally), I doubt that this 43s be your fastest time. There maybe a 35s hidden somewhere...
I wish Charles, I think you may be confusing me with someone with some fast twitch muscle fibres. The fastest I have swum 50m is 42s. When I do 25m sprints I can do a nice calm 20s with a two beat kick. When I try to go faster I hit the wall at 19s, I have tried everything I can think of to go faster;
spearing at different angles, shoulder driven stroke, different degrees of kicking, faster recovery, faster pull, etc etc. Ramping up the tt, stroke generally falls apart at about .76. I am most jealous of those elite swimmers who can make incredibly fast swimming look so smooth.
Any hints or tips that would get me going faster would be gratefully received .
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