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  #31  
Old 06-07-2016
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Originally Posted by Tom Pamperin View Post
Coach Stuart,

I just noticed your comment that "first hand entry count starts at zero." I though TI stroke counting started the first hand entry at 1--can you clarify?

If it is supposed to start at zero, then I just improved all of my SPL results with no added effort!
I count strokes l like a volley ball ref counts player entries onto the court. Every hand ENTRY counts. For the pushoff and first half stroke underwater, nothing is entering, so no counting yet. First hand ENTRY after the underwater stroke is one.

in volleyball, a player may "re-enter" the game once during each match. So if you start off the court, and rotate in, go through a rotation, you have one more chance to "re-enter" the game. However if you start ON the court, you can come out, enter once, do another round and exit, then re-enter again. So an onthe court player at the start of the game can potentially have 3 rounds of play, where an off the court player only two!
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  #32  
Old 06-07-2016
sclim sclim is offline
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Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
I count strokes l like a volley ball ref counts player entries onto the court. Every hand ENTRY counts. For the pushoff and first half stroke underwater, nothing is entering, so no counting yet. First hand ENTRY after the underwater stroke is one.

in volleyball, a player may "re-enter" the game once during each match. So if you start off the court, and rotate in, go through a rotation, you have one more chance to "re-enter" the game. However if you start ON the court, you can come out, enter once, do another round and exit, then re-enter again. So an onthe court player at the start of the game can potentially have 3 rounds of play, where an off the court player only two!
OK, so after my push off, I have always counted the first "pull" (that started from underwater, by one of the hands that was holding the other hand in streamline) as "ONE".

So, for all my SPL counts you would have counted each as one less. Sadly, at the range of SPL I'm at, it hardly makes much difference, lol.
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  #33  
Old 06-07-2016
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CoachStuartMcDougal CoachStuartMcDougal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Pamperin View Post
Coach Stuart,

I just noticed your comment that "first hand entry count starts at zero." I though TI stroke counting started the first hand entry at 1--can you clarify?

If it is supposed to start at zero, then I just improved all of my SPL results with no added effort!
Yes and no. When you're counting strokes per length, both arms are in front off the wall, the count starts at "one" on first hand entry since the single arm moving from the front and around to recovery entry is (mostly) one full stroke. As coach, determining a swimmer's stroke rate from the deck, I wait until swimmer is a few stokes in, and start with "zero" on hand entry, since one full stroke with the opposite arm will happen at "one" to get an accurate tempo.

Stuart
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  #34  
Old 06-07-2016
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Originally Posted by s.sciame View Post
Hi Stuart, when possible I like to do the math in the 2nd half of a 50m pool, because the pushoff effect has vanished (in the first few strokes after the breakout one could be slightly faster because of the pushoff itself) and the pace is usually more steady (it is quite common to start eagerly and then settle down to a steady pace after 25m, that's what Anna does here).
Hi Salvo,

Yeah I did the math for the entire length to make sure calcs lined up. 47 strokes in 45 meters is a .95m stroke length. Also total elapsed time of the full length is 36.7 secs or roughly 1:14 100m is very close too. So the estimations using the first half of both swims are very close.


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Originally Posted by s.sciame View Post
So, in "swinger" mode, from the halfway mark (the ladder) to the wall she takes about 20s: stroking speed (pushoff-free speed) = 25m/20s = 1.25m/s, which is a pace of 1:20/100m (wow, 1:20 without pushoff, that's fast!).
She also takes 25 strokes to cover 25m, so DPS = 1m. Calculated stroke rate = 20s/25 strokes = 0.8s/stroke or 75SPM. Measured stroke rate with a metronome is 75SPM as well, whereas it's higher in the first half of the length (she started eagerly).

Unfortunately we don't see the 2nd half of the length in "smooth" mode, it would have been interesting to compare.

Salvo
Right, I did get .8 secs per stroke too using 20 strokes, so maybe 80spm average. And yes, good question: Why wasn't the "smooth" 60spm length filmed in its entirety?

Happy to see you using the math to estimate and validate both unknowns and probabilities. :-)

Stuart
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  #35  
Old 06-09-2016
s.sciame s.sciame is offline
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Originally Posted by Tom Pamperin View Post

I train in LCM.

...

I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on how realistic a 7:30 500m might be; I'm in no hurry, and it's not pushing too hard to swim 1:30 for 100m repeats right now--have to work to add more repeats. My absolute 100m top speed is probably around 1:20 at the moment but I haven't really tested that. Last year training for my 10-miler I was consistently hitting 6:20-ish for 400m repeats on 7:00, and about 8:05 for 500m on 10:00, but could probably do faster for single efforts and with more speed/threshold training.
Hi Tom, from your previous posts I thought you trained in SCM, not LCM. When you say 16SPL I assume you're talking about SCM. Note that 16SPL do not translate to 32SPL in LCM, so your 36 beeps per 50m at 1.25 including 4 beeps for turn+pushoff would require a longer stroke than 16SPL either in SCM and LCM: in SCM it would be 18 beeps per length so 14SPL + 4 beeps for turn/pushoff, in LCM it would be 36 beeps per length at 32SPL (which is not 16SPL x 2). At 16SPL + 4 beeps for turn/pushoff you'll want 40 beeps per 50m, which is a stroke rate of 1.125.

For sure your 7:30 500m goal is realistic, I suspect you were almost if not already there last year when you used to consistently hit 6:20 over 400s. With proper training it won't take too long. Aerobic fitness for 400m and up matters a lot imho.
I have a similar goal: 6:00 over 400m (SCM). Same pace, 1:30/100m, less distance. Just to give you a reference, yesterday I did 10x100m on 1:45 hitting 1:29 consistently at steady SL/SR, then 16x50m resting 9s at the same pace and same gear. As you can see, the pace is there and the intervals are quite tight, however I feel I'm still not there (but quite close!!). When I'll do the 100s on 1:40 perhaps I'll be ready. I'm not in hurry as well, as you know I'm also swimming for longer distances and open water. Let's enjoy the process!

Salvo
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  #36  
Old 06-09-2016
Tom Pamperin Tom Pamperin is offline
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Originally Posted by s.sciame View Post
Hi Tom, from your previous posts I thought you trained in SCM, not LCM.
Yes, my mistake--and thanks for the details on your own progress; that's helpful (very!) to me, as we seem fairly close in speeds and capacity. I've been doing a very detailed think-through of my training plan, and hope to combine what I think I know about training/physiology and TI methods. I'll post a thread here probably in July (will be gone sailing until then, so I'll disappear from the forum after the weekend for a while).

One thing for sure--with all my technique work, I will need time for my aerobic fitness and capacity to develop. You swim fast on short rests! I need to start doing that. It's funny how much of the year has gone by without me adding any intensity. :)
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