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  #21  
Old 06-06-2016
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Originally Posted by Tom Pamperin View Post
This is interesting to hear because my own experience has not fit this pattern UNLESS you specify that the higher SR comes with the same stroke distance (SPL).

I've found that by upping my stroke rate but decreasing stroke length minimally (+1 or +2 SPL), my speed increases while my perceived effort drops dramatically.

I suspect that's because in much of my practice I'm an extreme outlier for low SPL, low SR, slow tempo swimming, though, so maybe it's not the same as everyone. But allowing myself extra strokes per length automatically seems to make me faster, but I work less hard than I do when I swim more slowly with a lower SPL.
I am in general agreement with this which is the whole point with the green zone SPL ranges. Each body is different. As a short 47 year old with a neck injury and Deconditioning it's more comfortable and less energy to increase rate slighlty and let spl go up. There are stroke changes that come with it and stroke breakdown which needs to be addressed and is addressed easily by slowing rate. I can resonate with parts of Anna's story because she writes about feeling stuck at a low spl.

But it was terry himself who helped me create new levels of fitness and PRs by adding strokes and increasing tempo. So there's a sweet spot where it's easy effort, and higher and lower than that spl for me has different functions for different distances. Lots of options. Always need to be mindful of those changes and they affect technique
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  #22  
Old 06-06-2016
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Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal View Post
Right! I wish US would have followed through moving to metric system back in late 70's, so much simpler and straight forward, 6.2mile = 10k, 26.2 = 42k. Too much resistance from US industries to make the switch.
It is simple in some things but we are a bit odd here in the UK as we still use miles for measurements. If I run or cycle and I try to work it out in KM or KM/H I have no clue how fast I am going. I have to work in min/miles or mph. Plus min/miles are easy to work out at the track because you can just multiply your 400m lap time by 4 to get your current mile pace. To have the mental capacity to convert it to mins/kmh when you're running at 90+ % of max HR requires a special brain indeed.... it's far too complicated! We mostly still do height and weight in imperial too. Does my head in!
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  #23  
Old 06-06-2016
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Originally Posted by Tom Pamperin View Post
So the effect is that the arm moves much more quickly above the water during recovery, and then slows way down for the patient catch and the underwater portion of the stroke.
That was my eureka moment too. Get it back over the top and to that 'mail slot' quickly.
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  #24  
Old 06-06-2016
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Pamperin View Post
This is interesting to hear because my own experience has not fit this pattern UNLESS you specify that the higher SR comes with the same stroke distance (SPL).

I've found that by upping my stroke rate but decreasing stroke length minimally (+1 or +2 SPL), my speed increases while my perceived effort drops dramatically.

I suspect that's because in much of my practice I'm an extreme outlier for low SPL, low SR, slow tempo swimming, though, so maybe it's not the same as everyone. But allowing myself extra strokes per length automatically seems to make me faster, but I work less hard than I do when I swim more slowly with a lower SPL.
There is too low a stroke rate and too high a stroke length given your height (wingspan) and skill set too. What are both your high/low stroke rates and spl combination, as well as the perceived effort of each (combination)?

Stuart
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  #25  
Old 06-06-2016
Tom Pamperin Tom Pamperin is offline
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Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal View Post
There is too low a stroke rate and too high a stroke length given your height (wingspan) and skill set too. What are both your high/low stroke rates and spl combination, as well as the perceived effort of each (combination)?

Stuart
Coach Stuart,

thanks for the comment--I agree completely.

In a 25m pool, my everyday practice range goes from 13 SPL at :46/50m (1.53 tempo if my math is right) to 17 SPL at :40/50m (tempo 1.05-ish) at my extreme high end. The perceived effort levels are similar at the extreme low and high, but get lowest around 15 SPL and :45/50m right now (so a tempo of 1.32 or so). The high SR 17 SPL is more of an aerobic effort (maybe a 4-4.5 of 5), while the low end 13 SPL is more a muscular/stretch/body tension effort, maybe around 4-ish? The 15 SPL 1.32 tempo seems to happen naturally when I swim a moderate pace (for 50m--it gets less moderate at longer distances), so maybe a 2.5-3? I don't usually put numbers on my effort levels, but that's my best guess. I'm tall with long arms (192 cm span).

I've been reducing my work at my low end after lots of emphasis there, and I suspect my fastest sustainable combinations will come in around 16 SPL for me. I kind of have a 7:30 500m in mind at 16 SPL, which would put me at a tempo of 1.25.

(All these tempos are reverse-engineered from SPL and clock results, as I haven't been doing TT work yet. That's my next priority, though).
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Last edited by Tom Pamperin : 06-06-2016 at 08:39 PM.
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  #26  
Old 06-06-2016
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Hi Tom,

Ok, got it - although I have you at 1.42 secs per stroke at 13 spl. 13 spl is a stroke length of 1.54m per stroke. This is roughly 80% of your height, quite high. I encourage swimmers to be in the 60-70% range or "green zone", so for you 15-17spl, 15 spl (1.33 meters per stroke) being ~70% and 17 spl (1.18 meters per stroke) being ~60%. This looks to be what you discovered through trial and error.

I rarely go above 1.3 secs per stroke and only for resetting balance, or possibly timing frequency of chop to stay low - but not as routine or sweet spot swimming.

Get a tempo trainer when you can. Or have someone time and count 10 strokes (count hand entries) for you, i.e. 10 strokes in 11 seconds = 1.10 secs per stroke or ~54 strokes per minute. First hand entry count starts at zero.

I'm not sure how consistent your turns and glides off the wall are, and can introduce errors in calculating your tempo. A descending set you can do without TT, 10x50 desc 1sec every 100, hold 16spl as you increase tempo, i.e. 2@0:48, 2@0:47, 2@0:46, 2@0:45, 2@0:44 - hold 16spl. That's roughly equivalent to desc from 1.20 tempo (48 secs) to 1.10 tempo (44 secs), so each 100m pick up the tempo (faster) just a bit. Give that a try.

Good luck!

Stuart
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  #27  
Old 06-07-2016
s.sciame s.sciame is offline
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Originally Posted by Tom Pamperin View Post
I kind of have a 7:30 500m in mind at 16 SPL, which would put me at a tempo of 1.25.
Hi Tom, 7:30 for 500m is 22.5s per length on avg. At 16SPL x 1.25 you would be left with only 2.5s for the turn+pushoff. It's not enough time imho, unless you want to do a super short pushoff but it would be pointless.

How about this: set TT at 1.12 and hit 16SPL + 4 beeps for turn and pushoff. In this way you avg 22.4s per length and have 4.48s for turn+pushoff.

Salvo

PS: by the way, how come do you have a 500m goal instead of the "official" 400m? Another yards-meters conflict? ;)

Last edited by s.sciame : 06-07-2016 at 08:48 AM.
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  #28  
Old 06-07-2016
s.sciame s.sciame is offline
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Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal View Post

But lets do the math on both. I've had to approximate the longer stroke swim since they didn't film the entire like as they did with the "swinger". Using the ladders looked to be roughly 25m, 5m glide off the wall, stroking ~20m.

"Smooth"
sl = 1.25m (16 strokes)
spm = 60 (1.0 secs per stroke)
speed = 1.25m x 60spm = 75m per minute
100m pace = 100/75 = 1.333 mins = 1:20.0

"Swing"
sl = 0.95m (21 strokes)
spm = 85 (.70 secs per stroke)
speed = 0.95m x 85spm = 80.8m per minute
100m pace 100/80.8 = 1.237 mins or 1:14.3
Hi Stuart, when possible I like to do the math in the 2nd half of a 50m pool, because the pushoff effect has vanished (in the first few strokes after the breakout one could be slightly faster because of the pushoff itself) and the pace is usually more steady (it is quite common to start eagerly and then settle down to a steady pace after 25m, that's what Anna does here).

So, in "swinger" mode, from the halfway mark (the ladder) to the wall she takes about 20s: stroking speed (pushoff-free speed) = 25m/20s = 1.25m/s, which is a pace of 1:20/100m (wow, 1:20 without pushoff, that's fast!).
She also takes 25 strokes to cover 25m, so DPS = 1m. Calculated stroke rate = 20s/25 strokes = 0.8s/stroke or 75SPM. Measured stroke rate with a metronome is 75SPM as well, whereas it's higher in the first half of the length (she started eagerly).

Unfortunately we don't see the 2nd half of the length in "smooth" mode, it would have been interesting to compare.

Salvo
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  #29  
Old 06-07-2016
Tom Pamperin Tom Pamperin is offline
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Originally Posted by s.sciame View Post
Hi Tom, 7:30 for 500m is 22.5s per length on avg. At 16SPL x 1.25 you would be left with only 2.5s for the turn+pushoff. It's not enough time imho, unless you want to do a super short pushoff but it would be pointless.

How about this: set TT at 1.12 and hit 16SPL + 4 beeps for turn and pushoff. In this way you avg 22.4s per length and have 4.48s for turn+pushoff.

Salvo
Salvo,

thanks for the input. I have not been working with a TT at all mainly because I haven't gotten around to replacing the battery (and also because beep-free swimming is more meditative for me), so all of my tempo reports here are interpolations based on time and SPL. But I thought I remembered that I use 2 beeps for the push-off (my push-off tends to be on the long-ish side rather than short--i.e. past the flags for first stroke) and 2 beeps for the turn, which is how I calculated a tempo of 1.25 at 16 SPL (e.g. 36 beeps=45 seconds=1.25 seconds/beep). I probably mis-remembered how many beeps I use for turns/push-offs--I do mean to start TT training soon so I'll check your suggestions out then. If you're right, I'm probably closer to your suggestion of 1.12 right now when I swim fast-ish 100m repeats.

Quote:
Originally Posted by s.sciame View Post
PS: by the way, how come do you have a 500m goal instead of the "official" 400m? Another yards-meters conflict? ;)
No yards/meters conflict--I train in LCM. But back when I was in coast guard rescue swimmer training (I injured my shoulder in a fall so never finished) we had to swim 500m as our usual measure of fitness. I think I got down to around 8:30 way back then, so it'll be fun to drop to near a 7:30 16 years later just because I've actually learned some technique since then!

I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on how realistic a 7:30 500m might be; I'm in no hurry, and it's not pushing too hard to swim 1:30 for 100m repeats right now--have to work to add more repeats. My absolute 100m top speed is probably around 1:20 at the moment but I haven't really tested that. Last year training for my 10-miler I was consistently hitting 6:20-ish for 400m repeats on 7:00, and about 8:05 for 500m on 10:00, but could probably do faster for single efforts and with more speed/threshold training.
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  #30  
Old 06-07-2016
Tom Pamperin Tom Pamperin is offline
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Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal View Post
Get a tempo trainer when you can. Or have someone time and count 10 strokes (count hand entries) for you, i.e. 10 strokes in 11 seconds = 1.10 secs per stroke or ~54 strokes per minute. First hand entry count starts at zero.
Coach Stuart,

I just noticed your comment that "first hand entry count starts at zero." I though TI stroke counting started the first hand entry at 1--can you clarify?

If it is supposed to start at zero, then I just improved all of my SPL results with no added effort!
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