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  #31  
Old 06-18-2018
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sclim View Post
I was wondering about Rachel Vanscoy doing the 6 beat kick. Was this just for the demo, or is this her habitual kick during long distance too?
Hi sclim,

Yes 6-beat kick is Rachel’s default kick pattern, and she has a very refined rotational kick which is the 2-beat kick. As long as a clean rotational kick is there, the 2-, 4–, 6- beat kick is personal preference.

Stu
Mindbodyandswim.com
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  #32  
Old 06-18-2018
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Hey Ant:

Although this video is more slow motion analysis, this is Coach Mandy before and after TI video. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=82kycjcg4EY. She became plagued with shoulder injuries beginning at age 14, and walked away from swimming at 17 - too painful, although she was very fast 100 and 200 freestyler. Now Mandy’s swimming with no pain (overuse injury is still there), longer distances, faster than ever before.

Stu
MindBodyAndSWIM.com
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  #33  
Old 06-18-2018
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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Hello Stuart,

that's really impressive! (Even more with your illustrating words.) Did Mandy ever have a talk about these differences with her former coaches, and if what do they think about?

In my last pooltime (pooltalk with some strokes is a better word for this) with my friend and former high performance swimmer, she said. In her active time, they trained very much technique not far away from TI's ideas in theorey, but measurable pace always was the better argument. She's very open minded to all TI-stuff, she can do every drill/movement at once without any hand on (although she she's surprised how "strange" it feels, she's been with TI long before we talked about especially in the "feeling for the water" Which is most important for her)... And she said, I should see "good, moderate pace" (her "good, moderate pace" is very near to my fastest :-( ) more as help for the drills/movement of my students than as result... And there we're running into a hen and egg "problem".

Best regards,
Werner
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  #34  
Old 06-18-2018
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Hi Werner,

Unfortunately, too much time had elapsed after swim team and the coaches had moved on while Mandy was in college. I doubt if they would've listened much since it was all about power and strength, 6000+ yards mornings and eves. In their defense though, they were coaching the kids as they had been coached over the years that was obviously successful *for them*.

Perceptions at that time (late 90's early 2000's), including mine, were if you weren't icing your shoulders after every swim workout, you weren't working hard enough. This was especially true for the girls in their teens on the team. I saw several swimmers go out for shoulder surgery, only to return briefly, then never saw them again. Very fast kids and fun to watch them swim, sad to see them leave the sport.

When Mandy went to Ortho doc to eval her shoulder, and he saw the overuse damage in xray and mri - his only solution was, as he said, "stop swimming, find another sport". Coaches offered no advice other than rest and go to the injury lane. Although that news was obviously tough to hear, the Doc was correct, but left off one very important statement : "stop swimming *that way* or find another sport".

However I have noticed the club teams have changed drastically since Mandy was on club. They are much more focused on improving skills and not building strength on all strokes; sets are much shorter closer to their events they are racing. And I no longer see kids icing shoulders which is a great thing.

Stu
mindbodyandswim.com
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  #35  
Old 06-19-2018
sclim sclim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal View Post
However I have noticed the club teams have changed drastically since Mandy was on club. They are much more focused on improving skills and not building strength on all strokes; sets are much shorter closer to their events they are racing. And I no longer see kids icing shoulders which is a great thing.

mindbodyandswim.com
Wow: that really seems like a huge turnaround.

Has the dial-down in dangerous intensity workouts happened universally? Or, I guess I should ask, what are the elite, Olympic and International Competition level swimmers and their coaches doing?
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  #36  
Old 06-19-2018
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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Hello Stuart,

Quote:
However I have noticed the club teams have changed drastically since Mandy was on club. They are much more focused on improving skills and not building strength on all strokes; sets are much shorter closer to their events they are racing. And I no longer see kids icing shoulders which is a great thing.
Looks like a stripe of light on horizon. Let's hope swim-coaching turned to the healthier way.

A sister of one of my students (12/13years) has achieved to go to a special school for football/soccer. Her motto (and that of her coaches too): If it doesn't hurt in the evening, something has been done wrong daywhile.

I'm afraid most of the high performance athletes in every sport are paying their performance directly with health or indirect with doping... and we're enjoyed and admiring them...

Let's hope TI will never get caught in such "coaching bubbles" as Terry called...

@Sclim
some years ago (a year after I started self-coaching TI) Hamburg's team "Trainieren für Olympia" had to swim in the pool where I swam. Construction problems in their pool, where they're regularly for their own and closed for public. Surprising had been four things to me
- their continous (training)pace and the doubtless long swam distance (I guess it might have been around 6km)
- the coaches on deck didn't shout (like the coaches for the "normal" Triathlons do), loudest were some short laughs together with the swimmers.
- all of the athletes swam with nearly no splashes... even on fly-laps
- seemed every swimmer got short talks with individual hints one and then. (Was not allowed to hear what they talked about.)

Best regards,
Werner
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  #37  
Old 06-19-2018
hercusg@yahoo.com
 
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Originally Posted by gary p View Post
Let me get this out of the way, first. 5'7" isn't that short. Certainly not so short you need a unique approach to swimming. Don't let yourself use your height, or perceived lack thereof, as an excuse to discount coaching/technique advice. I've rarely seen stroke advice that was good for someone 6' that wouldn't be good for someone 5'7".


Now that I've addressed that, let's go to your current speed vs. your goal. A 1:09 100m isn't bad. Pretty good, actually. How frequently are you swimming? What are your workouts like? You may be a 1:45/100 long distance swimmer because your stroke is bad, or maybe you're not training for that. My thought is it has to be some of the latter, because to swim a 1:09 100, you have to be doing a lot right. Regardless, it doesn't matter much what your 800 speed is.

Getting to 1:05 in the 100 from where you are is a simple math problem. You either need to increase your stroke rate ~8%, increase your distance per stroke ~8%, or some combination of the two.* TI is a great resource to help improve your technique and therefore your DPS. But any adjustments need to be considered against the affect on stroke rate.

Search this forum for "USRPT" or Ultra Short Race Pace Training. I've used it with great success to train for competitions. It seems tailor-made for your very specific objective. Long story short, for the 100 free, it entails swimming lots of 25's at 100 "Race Pace" on short rest.


*There are other technical things you can do to improve your 100 time. Specifically, there's likely time to be gained just with better starts and turns.
What you guys are saying makes a lot of sense. I measured my stroke length this morning and worked out that I am on the fringe of the green zone with a 21 strokes at between 95cm and 100cm stroke length leaving me at a 54% to 57% range right at the bottom of the green zone. Am I correct in saying that increasing my stroke length could assist with my swim speed?
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  #38  
Old 06-19-2018
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Originally Posted by liolio View Post
5.7 does not seem that short to me, lots of men that size not too mention women.
YOU should calculate your "ape index", I would think that the higher your ape index the lower your spl which is not necessarily the best match for your O2 needs.

I'm a beginner (ish almost two years in learning by myself) I don't spend that much time swimming freestyle though I read quite some things on the topic as well as watch quite some vids (not too mention others swimmers).
I don't pretend to do it right (various issue and whereas I work on proprioception it is still far from perfect) the most common issues I see with other swimmers are:
Bad overall body alignment /streamline
Bad spearing /extension (from over crossing from having the forearm moving upward)
Kicking too hard
(there is breathing but some open water swimmers purposefully have a weird breathing technique).
Too high SPL, I see a lot of people putting a F lots of efforts in the water and not maximizing their work.

All that said some are still going pretty fast, there is hope for all us ;) Definitely champion elite swimmers are tall (especially freestylers and basck strokers) but it is not what is holding you back.

When I feel down with my progress the thing keeps me going is the "feel" of water, experimenting with water reactionto pressures, working on proprioception in the water. Swimming in another person turbulences (and make it into a smooth ride), etc.
Putting the chronometers down 10 minutes (or more) and rediscovering "water", keep the experience fresh, an on going discovery of the medium which we are travelling through: time... I mean water :=)
I like your approach of "rediscovering" the water.
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  #39  
Old 06-19-2018
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Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal View Post
Hi hercusg,

Your primary issue is imbalance. If you are imbalanced at slower tempo (rate of turnover) then you're imbalanced at faster tempos too. It just not as noticeable since the the imbalance is being solved with faster hands and kicking feet - primal human impulse to stabilize the body.

What is your rate of turnover and number of strokes at 1:09 pace? If you don't know your tempo, have someone use a stop watch and count hand entries, i.e. 12 strokes in 10 secs is .833 secs per stroke or 72 strokes per minute.

There are far more opportunities to go faster by slowing tempo and increasing stroke length, but that requires exceptional balance. I suspect stabilizing your platform from the middle (not with busy hands and feet), slower rate and increasing stroke length you will easily drop that 4 secs or more on 100 sprint. Faster hands and feet doesn't mean you will go faster, it's the shape and position of the vessel, lower drag profile that matters more.

If you have or can get some metrics, stroke rate and stroke length, that would help us help you discover some choices to get to the speed you desire.

Stu
I think you nailed my problem. When I sprint I kick like a crazy person and I pull as hard as I can. I definitely feel more balanced (even though I am sure I can improve) when sprinting than when I cruze. I can confirm that I obtain that balance with busy hands and feet. I will work on balance.
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  #40  
Old 06-19-2018
Tom Pamperin Tom Pamperin is offline
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Originally Posted by hercusg@yahoo.com View Post
Am I correct in saying that increasing my stroke length could assist with my swim speed?
Absolutely.

Speed = stroke length x stroke rate

By traveling farther on each stroke, you MUST get faster if stroke rate stays the same.

By stroking faster, you MUST get faster--but only IF (and it's a big "if") your stroke does not get shorter as you speed up. Many people spin their arms faster but actually shorten their stroke so much that they end up slower.

The really interesting parts of training to me is learning to choose a specific target stroke length and stroke rate to get the speed you desire. That involves two things: holding SPL steady as stroke rate increases (i.e. working to keep your stroke long as you stroke faster), AND decreasing SPL (lengthening your stroke) while the stroke rate stays the same.

To do that, it is really useful to develop the ability to swim comfortably at every stroke length (SPL) in your green zone. I work on that with sets like this:

5 (4 x 25m) @ 14 SPL, 15 SPL, 16 SPL, 15 SPL, 14 SPL

I almost always end up faster at the end of the set than I was at the beginning. Switching gears and using different stroke lengths lets you learn how to keep your stroke long as you speed up stroke rate.
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Last edited by Tom Pamperin : 06-19-2018 at 01:54 PM.
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