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  #11  
Old 08-14-2017
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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with good swimming technique ingrained in every fiber of your body, swimming 2 min/100 is really low effort.
Much lower than 30 km/h on a bike. For elites more like 15 km/h effort level. almost nothing.
Everybody is possible of making it an 20 km/h effort level with enough practice I guess.
The problem is that older swimmers are such bad learners. We are really really stupid learning new physical skills.
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  #12  
Old 08-15-2017
johynr]]] johynr]]] is offline
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If you cant swim 1000m under 20 minutes there is a problem somewhere.>>

Is this time considered acceptable for adults with a non competitive swimming background?
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  #13  
Old 08-15-2017
Danny Danny is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
with good swimming technique ingrained in every fiber of your body, swimming 2 min/100 is really low effort.
Much lower than 30 km/h on a bike. For elites more like 15 km/h effort level. almost nothing.
Everybody is possible of making it an 20 km/h effort level with enough practice I guess.
The problem is that older swimmers are such bad learners. We are really really stupid learning new physical skills.
There are some people that have a natural skill in the water for unknown reasons. When I watch good swimmers, I am always amazed at the lack of deceleration that occurs for them during arm recovery. This weakness of mine was underscored recently when I got the chance the briefly swim in an endless pool, one of these tanks with propellers at one end. I could feel my body getting carried backwards during my recovery and accelerating forward during my pull. I would love to get that deceleration out of my stroke without having to speed up my stroke rate, but I don't know how.
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  #14  
Old 08-15-2017
novaswimmer novaswimmer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny View Post
There are some people that have a natural skill in the water for unknown reasons. When I watch good swimmers, I am always amazed at the lack of deceleration that occurs for them during arm recovery. This weakness of mine was underscored recently when I got the chance the briefly swim in an endless pool, one of these tanks with propellers at one end. I could feel my body getting carried backwards during my recovery and accelerating forward during my pull. I would love to get that deceleration out of my stroke without having to speed up my stroke rate, but I don't know how.
When you figure it out, let me know! I assume for me it is too much drag causing my deceleration. I have sinky legs and hips. Can't float without kicking legs, otherwise legs sink right down.
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  #15  
Old 08-15-2017
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CoachStuartMcDougal CoachStuartMcDougal is offline
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HI Novaswimmer, Danny:

If you feel deceleration during recovery, something is holding your body back and that would be broken/bent posture, low hips. Both issues are often caused by the path of the recovery or high side arm, lifting early stunting recovery, elbow lifting above the spine breaking posture, hitching or stopping at the hip at exit, and/or lead arm scooping toward surface, hand above the lung ball (or arm pit). Also, kicking from the knees, or knee flexion, you will see the swimmer decelerate as knee bends toward hip, then accelerate when kicking down extending leg. All of these issues trigger imbalance, added drag - much like stepping on the brakes, decelerating with every stroke and possibly every kick

Re: 1000m in 20 min, you have problems. This statement suggests the swimmer is flawed in some way, and is common conventional 'swim' perception that only mask opportunities for the swimmer to improve. This pace (1000m in 20min) is the same at 2:00 per 100m pace which most seasoned triathletes have difficulty maintaining for long distances if even hitting 2:00 pace for short distances. I would rephrase "problems" to "unlimited opportunities" to improve 1. balance, 2. shape of the vessel. In short learn to take your foot off the brakes, and not respond with more power/muscle. Improving (and maintaining) balance and posture with every stroke will take most swimmers from the 2:00 / 100m pace to 1:30 / 100m in a very short period time.

And for those Ironman triathletes that have been led to believe they could never hit a sub hour 2.4 mile swim. A 1:30 / 100m pace puts you at 00:58

Stu

Last edited by CoachStuartMcDougal : 08-15-2017 at 08:52 PM.
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  #16  
Old 08-16-2017
novaswimmer novaswimmer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal View Post
HI Novaswimmer, Danny:

If you feel deceleration during recovery, something is holding your body back and that would be broken/bent posture, low hips. Both issues are often caused by the path of the recovery or high side arm, lifting early stunting recovery, elbow lifting above the spine breaking posture, hitching or stopping at the hip at exit, and/or lead arm scooping toward surface, hand above the lung ball (or arm pit). Also, kicking from the knees, or knee flexion, you will see the swimmer decelerate as knee bends toward hip, then accelerate when kicking down extending leg. All of these issues trigger imbalance, added drag - much like stepping on the brakes, decelerating with every stroke and possibly every kick...
That's a lot to consider. Thanks! I will need to print this out and focus on (and rule out) one potential cause at a time. Otherwise, the list is overwhelming. I do know that my ankles are not terribly flexible and can't extend my foot like I should be able to.

'...as knee bends toward hip...' Not sure what this means.

Last edited by novaswimmer : 08-16-2017 at 02:58 PM.
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  #17  
Old 08-16-2017
Danny Danny is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal View Post
HI Novaswimmer, Danny:

If you feel deceleration during recovery, something is holding your body back and that would be broken/bent posture, low hips. Both issues are often caused by the path of the recovery or high side arm, lifting early stunting recovery, elbow lifting above the spine breaking posture, hitching or stopping at the hip at exit, and/or lead arm scooping toward surface, hand above the lung ball (or arm pit). Also, kicking from the knees, or knee flexion, you will see the swimmer decelerate as knee bends toward hip, then accelerate when kicking down extending leg. All of these issues trigger imbalance, added drag - much like stepping on the brakes, decelerating with every stroke and possibly every kick

Re: 1000m in 20 min, you have problems. This statement suggests the swimmer is flawed in some way, and is common conventional 'swim' perception that only mask opportunities for the swimmer to improve. This pace (1000m in 20min) is the same at 2:00 per 100m pace which most seasoned triathletes have difficulty maintaining for long distances if even hitting 2:00 pace for short distances. I would rephrase "problems" to "unlimited opportunities" to improve 1. balance, 2. shape of the vessel. In short learn to take your foot off the brakes, and not respond with more power/muscle. Improving (and maintaining) balance and posture with every stroke will take most swimmers from the 2:00 / 100m pace to 1:30 / 100m in a very short period time.

And for those Ironman triathletes that have been led to believe they could never hit a sub hour 2.4 mile swim. A 1:30 / 100m pace puts you at 00:58

Stu
Hi Stuart,

Thanks for your input. I have been doing battle with all of these issues for years now, and I am still far from perfect. The way I have been diagnosing my spinal and head alignment is by skating. The key place where the alignment breaks down in my case is not in the skating itself, but rather in the rotation to breath, so I have been practicing rotating to breath while skating because it lets me focus exclusively on alignment issues while I do it. What i noticed today, and not for the first time, is that my old separated shoulder on the right forces me to recover differently on the right side from on the left if I want to maintain alignment during recovery. In fact, I don't even need to recover (which I don't do when skating). During skating rotation, my right shoulder must follow a different path when I rotate right with my right arm on my hip than when I rotate left with my left arm on my hip, if I am to maintain the head alignment that I want. So this was a key insight to me, which carries over immediately during full stroke. If the shoulder follows a different path then so will the entire arm. When I do the correct shoulder movement, my spearing on the right side occurs at an earlier stage in the recovery than on my left. I have noticed this tendency for years, and have tried to correct for it, but now I think that I should embrace it, because it is what i need for proper alignment. So today I swam 300 m intervals this way. My SPL was lower, I was more relaxed and even my times got faster!

As always, one such practice does not constitute a breakthrough, but I am looking forward to getting in the water again to see how well this trend holds up.

Regards,

Danny
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  #18  
Old 08-16-2017
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Quote:
Originally Posted by novaswimmer View Post
That's a lot to consider. Thanks! I will need to print this out and focus on (and rule out) one potential cause at a time. Otherwise, the list is overwhelming. I do know that my ankles are not terribly flexible and can't extend my foot like I should be able to.

'...as knee bends toward hip...' Not sure what this means.
Yes it can seem like a lot, but if you focus on the major movement of the recovery, releasing past the hip (and not lift), it will swing wide naturally and entry correctly. Sometimes I use "launch recovery correctly it will land/enter correctly". Focusing on the catch/pull before correcting the path of recovery is like putting the cart before the horse, the swimmer will be hopelessly stabilizing the body with the low side arm (catch/pull) and kick from the knees due to imbalances created from the path of the high side (recovery) arm.

Re: knee bends toward hip. Excessive knee bend, often close to 90 degs, followed by quick downward kick extending the leg. Sometimes referred to as bicycle kick. This is a kick from the knees and not hips and is a response to imbalance the swimmer is completely unaware. Here's a demo comparing a kick from the knees vs a kick from the hip. You will see a (subtle) deceleration with the excessive bend or kick from the knees in freestyle. But if my knees bend as much as Coach Mandy in this demo, my hips would easily drop 4", probably more adding to the deceleration. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBuydZ7y7VU

Stu
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  #19  
Old 08-16-2017
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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Hello Danny,

a question sometimes came in my mind, when I read about your seperated shoulder and resulting balance difficulties. So FWIW:

What happens, when you focus in a symmetric stroke, limiting your younger :-) side's movements to the same amount as (older :-)) seperated shoulder allows as harmless motion? It won't make you faster, but I can imagine it might flatten out some balance-issues.

Best regards,
Werner
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  #20  
Old 08-16-2017
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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These points are also valid in the quest to reduce drag and improve propulsion.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKzNHXpBzQc
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