Total Immersion Forums  

Go Back   Total Immersion Forums > Favorite Practices and Sets
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old 02-21-2016
CoachMatHudson CoachMatHudson is offline
Coach
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Oregon, USA - Antalya, Türkiye
Posts: 49
CoachMatHudson
Default

Gary P, thank you for your detailed explanation. You have spoken to my concerns and increased my interest in the USRPT methods.

However, I am nursing a slightly sore shoulder joint this morning. I spent some time in bed last night (a bit of insomnia) digging into my instinct for why I set up my approach to sprint work as I did, after you and Suzanne kindly questioned it. There is a reason I set up that approach, and my sore shoulder reminds me of the wisdom I am attempting to insert into my process. Let me explain in the next post.
__________________
~ Mat Hudson

Head Coach
Mediterra International Swimming
mediterraswim.com

My blog with over 400 posts on TI technique and mindful training: Smooth Strokes Blog

Email: mat@mediterraswim.com
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 02-21-2016
andyinnorway andyinnorway is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,680
andyinnorway
Default

I too get a sore shoulder sometimes if I take on a SR my system isn't ready for. I think it comes from adding too much pressure to try to catch up the sync of the stroke.

I've also found my fastest swimming is to push my stroke rate just beyond the limit of my nervous system and then add a planned double (glide) stroke to reset the sync.

e.g. 25m swum as tt@0.69 breathe every 4 strokes double the 7th stroke.

I'm loving my sprint project as there are so many variables to experiment with.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 02-21-2016
CoachMatHudson CoachMatHudson is offline
Coach
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Oregon, USA - Antalya, Türkiye
Posts: 49
CoachMatHudson
Default Gradual Increase in Loading

My sore shoulder joint this morning is helping me dig into my intuition and see why I know I should be approaching my sprint work in a certain way. Gary P and Suzanne's comments and questions are prompting me to formulate that intuition into words.

As I mentioned above there are three main systems to be developed: motor, metabolic, muscular. They are not compartamentalized systems, but interdependent, so changes in one affect the others. But for easier comprehension we look at them as if they are separate.

I am writing all this out, not to pretend to be an expert, but to be a responsible experimenter and student of the subject, again leaving my ideas and reason open to consideration by thoughtful minds who read this.

What I don't like about the label 'muscular' is that it draws attention to only one component of the force generation/transfer system. There are all those supporting and connective tissues of tendons, ligaments, joint lubrication and fascia. The whole team of tissue has to be prepared to handle the loads of faster tempo and higher power per stroke. The metabolism and the muscles might somehow be able to produce more force, but that does not mean those supporting tissues are ready for it. Sensitivity for conditioning has to be applied a bit deeper.

I am trying to draw some lessons from strength/power training in the gym, a topic of which I am newly acquainted - better late than never. But in my initial studies I have made a major discovery, a likely reason that I am so vulnerable to injury in my joints - as a 14 year old I went straight from 'riding my bike and playing golf' to 'specialized training on a championship high school swim team'. I had very little general conditioning and strength in my body before I started loading it with highly specialized training and loads. And all that testosterone and pride and ignorance of how the body works set the stage for my injuries for years to come. Throw in a morbid attraction to suffering in workouts and it is no wonder I blew up my shoulders (and then my knee several years later).

Gradual Loading

I have much more familiarity with building up for longer distances, of course. In planning training for myself and for my adult athletes (from 40s to 70s, most of whom do not have a strong history in swimming) I see not just the speed and energy supply components, but also the loading of the joints, loading per stroke, and accumulated loading over time. All the systems in body and mind need to get ready for that.

So, when I have someone working towards a distance much longer than they have gone before, I am trying to be sensitive to the increased loading that will happen on their joints and system over time. Without a long history in the activity older bodies have a longer and more delicate road to attain specialized conditioning for that activity.

What I am doing in returning to sprint training is applying that same gradual loading principle inverted for shorter distances.

Let me put some arbitrary numbers on this to show the picture in my mind:

Let's say I am putting 60% max load on my shoulders at 60 strokes per 100y (or 60 strokes per 60 seconds) for my 3000 meter swimming. Then I want to switch to 100 sprint, and I increase loading to 90% max at 80 strokes per 100y.

100y loading on shoulder for a 3000 swim: 60 x 60 = 360
100y loading on shoulder for 100 swim: 90 x 80 = 720

I double the loading on the shoulder joint switching to the sprint event. That is a MASSIVE increase in stress on the joint.

The numbers are arbitrary but I hope this comes close to illustrating the dramatic change in physical forces that my shoulder must eventually be prepare to handle without injury.

I have trained for years to handle a moderate load per stroke on the shoulder joint, with a moderate number of revolutions per minute, and to maintain that for up to 3 hours at time.

But my shoulders have never successfully handled extremely high load for stroke for many revolutions per minute, even though it only lasts for 60 or 70 seconds. I would like to get them ready to do that successfully.

The principle here is gradual loading for gradual conditioning to give all the body systems (not just the easily observed and measured ones) time and attention to develop parallel to the whole team of systems.

I suspect now, because of my poor general conditioning in those early athletic years my joints are just vulnerable to getting injured - particularly because my supporting tissues have not been given time to build up to support the loading I aspire to handle. I am finally getting a responsible vision for general conditioning, which I now do weekly.

It is easier to imagine how we build up loading for long distances - we incrementally increase distance intervals and lower rest intervals, and make small adjustments to SPL and/or Tempo to increase ability to hold moderate loading for longer spans of time.

I am attempting to do this in an inverted way to transition from long-distance conditions and loading, to sprint conditions and loading.

So, absolutely, yes, I need to eventually be doing 25 and 50 USRP intervals, but I can't simply jump there from 1500m intervals (360 units of loading per 100) to 50 intervals (720 units of loading per 100). My attempt to apply the principle has me considering not just distance and tempo, but a subjective sense of how much load per stroke, or load per distance (or load per time) I am putting on my shoulders.

Since this is my first attempt to put this into words, I don't know how clear this will be to readers. But I hope you might start to see that doing 300 or 150 repeats is just a transitional loading step between 600s of my distance training, to the 50s that I eventually need to be doing. As I reduce distance, I also have to be careful to make only incremental increases in loading on the shoulder. It is far too easy to dramatically reduce the distance stress (shorten the interval) and replace it with extraordinary force-per-stroke stress to give myself some sense of 'real training' on such short distances. The mind can't orient and manage the systems safely with such dramatic changes. The step is too big, to disorienting, to dangerous for those not familiar with the forces at work.

And, today my shoulder is reminding me that it is premature to be doing 50 repeats - I simply don't feel subtle pain signals well enough while swimming short and intensely, and my eagerness to go hard clouds my judgment in the middle or practice still, after all these years. I do not feel it is premature to be doing faster and faster tempos, without SPL constraint, because I can do that with low force-per-stroke, and just allow the tissues to get adapted to faster movement without high loading.

We might say that my training plan is for people with vulnerable joints. I carefully work one or two dimensions (systems that handle stress) in a practice (hence the 3 different weekly practice types) out of the multi-dimensional situation the body and joints will face in the ultimate 100 sprint test. I gradually combine dimensions in training, I gradually combine the stressors upon the body in order to handle them without injury. Rather than blast my way to the ultimate goal, I set milestone achievement goals and carefully monitor the body for vulnerabilities as I test and go.

That's my first attempt to explain my approach, at least. I welcome your further observations and discussion.
__________________
~ Mat Hudson

Head Coach
Mediterra International Swimming
mediterraswim.com

My blog with over 400 posts on TI technique and mindful training: Smooth Strokes Blog

Email: mat@mediterraswim.com

Last edited by CoachMatHudson : 02-21-2016 at 06:28 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 02-21-2016
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,898
Zenturtle
Default

You define power (wattage) as shoulder loading.
To my view bad shoulder loading is mainly determined by force on the shoulderjoint, not the rotational speed.
And the forceenvelope generated during the armcycle in combination with the 3D armpositions.
I stretch and load shoulders and core with high ref dryland straightarm windmilling at strokerates to 150 strokes/min and never have had any shoulder issues from that practice. 80 strokes/min is slow on dryland. Rotational rate is not a problem.
The other side of loading the shoulders is by increasing force.
Many swimmers have ruined their shoulders by using paddles swimming in 6th gear when their main bearings could only handle the torque/speed combination for 3th gear.
I agree your tendons and possibly other structures need some time to adapt to increased force.
Maybe you could already start to adapt to higher strokerates without adding too much force. That covers one end of the sprint challange, without creating much risk for the shoulders.
How? Do the opposite of using paddles, sprint with closed fists.
Ti was about swimming with the whole body wasnt it?
Gradually open the hand when 80-90 strokes/min feels natural to increase force on the shoulders at higher strokerates.
Swimming with open fingers or totally relaxed hands is also a good drill to let effort and focus shift to your body instead of your hands/shoulders.



Another aspect of wear and tear is the time you expose structures to a higher load.
The body can withstand very high loads (shock loads in running for example), but not for prolonged time durations.
Usually wear is a product of load and exposed time to that load.
In long distance events the load is reduced, but the exposure time is increased. Sprinting does the opposte. The nett effect could be the same , but force is still a dominant factor in overloading structures above certtain force and exposuretime limits.
A higher strokerate at the same strokelength produces more speed/drag/force on the structures at a higher repetition rate,increasing both force and exposed above force limit time.(although the sprint itself is short )
An even higher strokerate at a shorter strokelength could give the same speed/drag/force at an even higher repetition rate, but with shorter force peaks, giving less above limit exposure time.(just like switching to a lower gear)
This is all under the assumption you are able to keep the drag the same at a shorter stroke, elevated strokerate.
I guess you will be loosing some streamline with that shorter stroke, but the alternative is a better streamline moved forward at a higher gear, which could give a higher torque load on the shoulders.
If you can improve your streamline more than the load on your shoulders increases at higher speed, you better improve streamline, but if you are unable to improve your streamline any further, there is no other option than switching to a lower gear if shoulder torque is your limiting factor instead of engine size.


Do you use a 2BK in your 100m sprints?

Last edited by Zenturtle : 02-25-2016 at 12:57 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 03-05-2016
CoachMatHudson CoachMatHudson is offline
Coach
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Oregon, USA - Antalya, Türkiye
Posts: 49
CoachMatHudson
Default

Hey ZenTurtle,

Yes, my project explicitly calls for a 2BK to see what I can accomplish with it under these conditions.

I recognize power in two ways, force-per-stroke and force-per-stroke-over-time (wattage).

Force-per-stroke is a concern because of how much stress is being imposed upon the shoulder joint in that moment. Loading too much too soon on an unprepared joint can cause a sudden injury without warning.

Force-ps-over-time is a concern because of wear-and-tear on the joint from repetitive motion with any sub-optimal movement patterns. This may come with a warning.

I have done some fist-swim work at tempos in the 0.90s. It may be worth the time to adapt to doing it faster, but when I get around .85 or lower its hard to avoid the sensation of punching the water (literally) on each entry and extension. The ballistics of the fist striking the water, at some point in increased tempo, make me wonder how helpful it will be. The unavoidable turbulence created at those arm speeds may interfere with the benefit of fist swimming.

I am taking the route of making calculated shifts to shorter stroke with faster tempo. Hence, the purpose of the Pace Matrix in helping me determine where those shift points should be.

My latest stroke demo video at 0.93 tempo (posted on my latest blog) is meant to help me see where I might have room for improvement in streamline, precision, and timing as I work to faster and faster tempos. 0.93 is currently within my working range, and so I thought it would be a good test tempo. The feedback I got from Terry, Suzanne, and other colleagues suggested some. In the weeks to come, as I move down into 0.80s I will try to get another video.
__________________
~ Mat Hudson

Head Coach
Mediterra International Swimming
mediterraswim.com

My blog with over 400 posts on TI technique and mindful training: Smooth Strokes Blog

Email: mat@mediterraswim.com

Last edited by CoachMatHudson : 03-05-2016 at 11:12 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 03-05-2016
CoachMatHudson CoachMatHudson is offline
Coach
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Oregon, USA - Antalya, Türkiye
Posts: 49
CoachMatHudson
Default Three Improvement Opportunities

From the video and feedback I received from Coach Terry, Suzanne, and others I see that my Three Improvement Opportunities, as noted in my latest blog post:

1) Tilt the head down a bit further, into truly neutral head position.


2) Improve the timing of the arm switch - no over-lap, no under-lap.


3) Consciously emphasize the hip drive a bit more.


And, the video links:

Coach Mat Freestyle Demo - Tempo 0.93
https://youtu.be/R8_IC07zJoE

Coach Mat Freestyle Demo - Tempo 1.03
https://youtu.be/RouvPMaY7po
__________________
~ Mat Hudson

Head Coach
Mediterra International Swimming
mediterraswim.com

My blog with over 400 posts on TI technique and mindful training: Smooth Strokes Blog

Email: mat@mediterraswim.com
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 03-05-2016
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
Coach
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,453
CoachSuzanne
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachMatHudson View Post
From the video and feedback I received from Coach Terry, Suzanne, and others I see that my Three Improvement Opportunities, as noted in my latest blog post:

1) Tilt the head down a bit further, into truly neutral head position.


2) Improve the timing of the arm switch - no over-lap, no under-lap.


3) Consciously emphasize the hip drive a bit more.


And, the video links:

Coach Mat Freestyle Demo - Tempo 0.93
https://youtu.be/R8_IC07zJoE

Coach Mat Freestyle Demo - Tempo 1.03
https://youtu.be/RouvPMaY7po
hi Mat, I watched your videos and first of all..great venue!

Secondly, were the posts above (listed as "one week ago") before or after our brief chat about a-lactate (sub 10 second) training efforts?

I like some of the points zen turtle makes, and think an area for exploration is a short practice session composed of a 10-15min warmup and 4 rounds (week 1) of something along these lines:


WITHOUT a tempo trainer
4 rounds of: {
pushoff + 10 long & strong strokes traveling as quickly and as far as you can (note where you get to) and then easy to wall & back (total 50yd)
50 yd active recovery (back or breast?)
2 x 50 yd of (25 fist, 25 swim or similar)
200yd very easy pace
rest until ready for next round
}

then cooldown. it's doubtful you'll feel much residual strain or hurt yourself from this type of a set, yet it will start to build from the other end of your project.
__________________
Suzanne Atkinson, MD
Level 3 USAT Coach
USA Paralympic Triathlon Coach
Coach of 5 time USA Triathlon Triathlete of the Year, Kirsten Sass
Steel City Endurance, LTD
Fresh Freestyle

Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 03-05-2016
CoachMatHudson CoachMatHudson is offline
Coach
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Oregon, USA - Antalya, Türkiye
Posts: 49
CoachMatHudson
Default A-Lactate Sprint Bursts

Hey Suzanne,

Those previous practices were done before you and I talked in Clermont about the a-lactate set. Your ideas definitely gave me some insight and hope that I can isolate this other system without full or extended loading (yet). I actually did that a-lactate set yesterday.

I might as well post my report from the two practices I did last week:

Practice 1 Main Set

8 rounds of 3x 75 each at TT - 0.97. 0.95, 0.93, 0.91, 0.89, 0.87, 0.85, 0.83 - medium stroke pressure, no SPL constraint, seek the 'sweet rhythm.

Results: At first, I did the first 25 of each repeat with fist. But at Tempo 0.89 I quit using fists. I didn't feel like it was helping me improve my tuning. I started to feel rushed at 0.85, and 0.83, but otherwise I stopped while feeling well within my capabilities. It was a 1800y set as it was.

Practice 2 Main Set

200 then 5 rounds of an 8-stroke 'A-Lactate Sprint Burst' + 175 recovery swim with "AB sync" focal point *

Each burst started with flip-turn, full push-off, breakout, then 8 full-power sprint strokes which took me 2 strokes past half-way mark in the pool.

Results: the 175 recovery felt about right to recharge the batteries for the next round. The cardio effort was not difficult at all, yet I could feel things changing in my system during the recovery. I felt eager for the next sprint burst. During the sprint I could feel force in the shoulders but no sense of strain, but it was definitely more force than I have been putting through those joints.

* AB sync refers to the timing of my entry hand (A) and the set of the Catch (B). I use these letters as reference points for the 4 propulsion points on the body (A-entry, B-catch, C-hip drive, D-foot)

***

Question for Suzanne:

I appreciate the caution you gave me to start easy with this a-lactate set with just a few rounds - I see that it can be deceptively 'easy' - there is virtually no overt sense of exhaustion or 'accomplishment' from this set. But I could feel a few subtle sensations, perhaps chemical changes in my system during the recovery.

From your explanation, and now from feeling it, I sense the function and benefit of this type of set, and because of that I can heed your instruction to only gradually increasing rounds each week. But what could be a way to measure or monitor the impact of this set on my sprint fitness? What effects or clues might I look for in other sets during the week to see that this activation of muscle under the lactate threshold is having an impact?
__________________
~ Mat Hudson

Head Coach
Mediterra International Swimming
mediterraswim.com

My blog with over 400 posts on TI technique and mindful training: Smooth Strokes Blog

Email: mat@mediterraswim.com

Last edited by CoachMatHudson : 03-05-2016 at 11:39 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 03-06-2016
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,898
Zenturtle
Default

Hi Matt,
In my view you still have way too much no propulsion time in your 0.93 stroke.
In my experience its a real game changer to go from your stroke to at least the active glide arm movement from go swim.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KILRRbCzwUE
Having the hand still or moving it towards catch shape gently feeling for traction under the hand and following forearm during the transition makes a big difference in the perception of the stroke and the feeling of the body being dragged forward all the tine as on an invisable rope.
This slight change of arm shape change doesnt change streamline, but makes forward progress much smoother.
Its a pretty fundamental change perception wise if you are used to more static glide upfront like in your more long distance style.
Terry himself has the least stationary spearing arm of all the TI swimmers around, Shinjis arm movement is also in continuous movement although its more gradualal compared to Terrys. Its not you flailing of the arms if you do so I think.
You could also spear a bit shallower for optimal streamline, but I dont know if your shoulder can take it offcourse.
If you want me to stop repeating this all the time its OK. Getting a bit bored about it myself too, but if you are convinced of someting you want to convince others too.

Some Quotes from Boomer and Touretski which apply particularly to sprint swimming:

A swimmer's speed, Boomer says, is determined by length and efficiency of stroke, not number of strokes.

Touretski believes swimmers should do what animals do, stretching as far forward as possible to get the longest pull with each stroke

The problem is that wave drag increases as the cube of any increase in swimming speed. And it gets worse if a swimmer makes jerky or uneven movements

Rhythm is important for reducing jerkiness in the water. When a freestyle swimmer's hand digs into the water his or her body speeds up, but when it is withdrawn the body slows down. Like a one-cylinder engine, this results in uneven propulsion. The larger the changes, the more energy is wasted.

To move at a constant speed, one arm should always dig into the water as the other comes out, so that the motion is more like that generated by a two-cylinder engine, in which one piston drives the engine while the other recovers

Last edited by Zenturtle : 03-06-2016 at 09:31 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 03-06-2016
terry terry is offline
Head Coach
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,305
terry has disabled reputation
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
To move at a constant speed, one arm should always dig into the water as the other comes out, so that the motion is more like that generated by a two-cylinder engine, in which one piston drives the engine while the other recovers[/i]
This last quote overlooks the effects of drag which is the largest limiter of speed. Drag is lower when you keep the body line longer during the non-propulsive phase.
__________________
Terry Laughlin
Head Coach & Chief Executive Optimist

May your laps be as happy as mine.

My TI Story
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are Off
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 07:11 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.