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  #1  
Old 07-08-2013
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Default Catch and Kick

Just spent the day studying this and thought I'd share the results. They are edits (not of very high quality) of sections from two videos, the first http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3iL-4F_v3mU" taken from the Shinji accelaration video and the other http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7o_Bs1hI4JI"taken from footage of Sun Yang's 1500 win in London. I see is the same thing in both: the (major) kick is completed by the end of the catch phase, before the pull.

With Sun Yang it's harder to see this asynchronisation due to the 6 beat pattern, but what I see is actually six beat pattern formed by a major kick on each third kick (what Charles calls a walz rhythm I think). Sadly my video editor couldn't cope with the original for some reason so I couldn't pause it to stress the end points of these major kicks (beats).

p.s Gotta love those underwater whirlpools that Sun Yang creates!!
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Last edited by Talvi : 07-08-2013 at 08:20 PM. Reason: pour Charles :)
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Old 07-08-2013
wmeg wmeg is offline
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You can also think about it the other way and see that, in the case of Shinji, the catch and the kick on the same side happen simultaneously. This can be practiced as such

Last edited by wmeg : 07-08-2013 at 06:19 PM.
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  #3  
Old 07-08-2013
CoachDavidShen CoachDavidShen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talvi View Post
Just spent the day studying this and thought I'd share the results. They are edits (not of very high quality) of sections from two videos, the first taken from the Shinji accelaration video and the other taken from footage of Sun Yang's 1500 win in London. I see is the same thing in both: the (major) kick is completed by the end of the catch phase, before the pull.

With Sun Yang it's harder to see this asynchronisation due to the 6 beat pattern, but what I see is actually six beat pattern formed by a major kick on each third kick (what Charles calls a walz rhythm I think). Sadly my video editor couldn't cope with the original for some reason so I couldn't pause it to stress the end points of these major kicks (beats).

p.s Gotta love those underwater whirlpools that Sun Yang creates!!
as you may have noticed, 6BK is really 2BK with 2 more kicks on each side. on 6BK, you use the 3rd kick to send energy down the torso through the spear when it happens.
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Old 07-08-2013
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wmeg View Post
You can also think about it the other way and see that, in the case of Shinji, the catch and the kick on the same side happen simultaneously.
That's precisely where I started too, but, for me, the "opposite side" perception didn't help either the kick or to centre the stroke. I believed it would, focused on it, but continued, unknowingly, to flounder about. I couldn't determe a reference point.

The "major" elements of the stroke, on which so many threads here focus: the catch, the pull, the hip drive, the rotation, and the kick; all lock together in a rhythm while effectively the spearing arm, more or less, remains in the same position. They all centre around the transition point, between catch and pull, a focus which it seems to me is remarkably precise and identical in both swimmers despite the variations between them.

My vids are pretty rubbish, but (if you watch them enough times!) they do tell the story. It's easy for me to see as I spent most of the day finguring it out and making them. (there are some fortuitous stutters that provide a sort of "X" marks the spot in the Sun Yang one)

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachDavidShen View Post
as you may have noticed, 6BK is really 2BK with 2 more kicks on each side. on 6BK, you use the 3rd kick to send energy down the torso through the spear when it happens.
Exactly! I'd thought I saw that in Sun Yang's stroke before, but it was somehow hazy. The editing process for the vids, nailing down this similarity and transition point, really brought it home. The point where Sun Yang bends his knee, for the power kick, the 2BK, does time with the spear in both swimmers, BUT the massive acceleration of the kick (the "feel" part of the kick I think) which "kicks the ball" occurs as the catch turns into the pull. In Sun Yang especially I also noticed that the kick never passes the "spearing line".
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A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
~ George Kelly

"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov
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  #5  
Old 07-08-2013
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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The 3rd or the 4th?
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  #6  
Old 07-08-2013
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier View Post
The 3rd or the 4th?
Would you expand on that?

are you saying the refs (to the first and the second) were obscure :D ?? I'll see if I can do it better :)
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A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
~ George Kelly

"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov

Last edited by Talvi : 07-08-2013 at 08:18 PM. Reason: afterthought
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  #7  
Old 07-08-2013
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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No don't worry, I was just reacting to David's little mistake, which I always do myself. In a 6bk, the two major ones are 1th and 4th, not 1th and 3rd.

In fact the third one is a very minor kick.
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  #8  
Old 07-08-2013
Rincewind Rincewind is offline
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if my understanding is correct 6bk is like this:

LEFT right left right left RIGHT left right left right LEFT......
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  #9  
Old 07-08-2013
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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euhh, no sorry. You're off.

It's L-r-l-R-l-r

As simple as that. Almost too trivial to make a post out of it.

Brings me to the controversial topic of how to handle 6bk dev with a tempo trainer. I'm a firm believer that one should rather set the TT to fit the major kicks. Hearing and trying to follow 180b/min has never really make much sense to me.

In fact, the swim waltz was inspired by this very simple fact. It promotes thinking ternary (music term which encompasses the waltz, or anyother 123-123 based beat).

Last edited by CharlesCouturier : 07-08-2013 at 09:19 PM.
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  #10  
Old 07-08-2013
Grant Grant is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
if my understanding is correct 6bk is like this:

LEFT right left right left RIGHT left right left right LEFT......
I think Charles is right
LrlRlr. LrlRlr
The first and fourth kick are the pronounced ones.
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