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  #61  
Old 04-21-2012
Mike from NS Mike from NS is offline
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Default reporting back .......

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachDavidShen View Post
Mike_NS, one thing we did in the workshop was just launch into SG and then gently kick one leg at a time while holding the other one still, pausing between kicks to feel the effect. This is one way that may be able to help you feel the effect of a single kick and the rotational force it imparts on your body, especially at the hip.

Once you get the feel for a kick lending authority to hip (and therefore the rest of your body) rotation, then you can start practicing towards what ladyfish describes, which is a connection from the foot/kick, through the leg, to the hip, diagonally across your torso, the shoulders, and out through the spearing arm.

Give that a go and report back!
David,

I gave this a try today .... however I didn't see the results that were expected. The pool was crazy and really didn't present a good opportunity for a fair study of cause and effect. I will give this a better try the next time and let you know what I learned. Today, I couldn't see much effect in SG and kicking --- but then I don't think I gave it a just effort. I do feel the effects diagonally into the spear ~ or at least I think I do.
Mike
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  #62  
Old 04-21-2012
Grant Grant is offline
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I have been playing with what you folks have been talking about. i.e. waiting till the upper arm is in the water before kick and hip thrust. This feels really propulsive. Till now I have been initiating the kick and hip thrust when the recovering hand entered the water at the front of my head. The result is that my spl stay the same but the time is equal to what I achieved previously at TT setting of 1.0 with a setting of 1.1.
Until you brought this up I had never made that distinction. Thank you. I usually read this forum at least once a day and had never seen the point of waiting till the upper arm is in the water before starting the chain of events.
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  #63  
Old 04-21-2012
CoachDavidShen CoachDavidShen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike from NS View Post
David,

I gave this a try today .... however I didn't see the results that were expected. The pool was crazy and really didn't present a good opportunity for a fair study of cause and effect. I will give this a better try the next time and let you know what I learned. Today, I couldn't see much effect in SG and kicking --- but then I don't think I gave it a just effort. I do feel the effects diagonally into the spear ~ or at least I think I do.
Mike
try to kick one leg at a time, pausing between kicks to really feel the kick causing a hip rotation, which causes a slight angle to the body, with shoulder dipping downward.

make sure you aren't flutter kicking, meaning continuously kicking each leg one after another with no pause between....

you can also try this by launching into a SG but with arms to your sides instead of in front of you. Then you don't have your arms in front but you can feel your shoulder really dipping, in response to body/hip rotating slightly due to your kick imparting that rotational force...
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  #64  
Old 04-21-2012
Mike from NS Mike from NS is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachDavidShen View Post
try to kick one leg at a time, pausing between kicks to really feel the kick causing a hip rotation, which causes a slight angle to the body, with shoulder dipping downward.

make sure you aren't flutter kicking, meaning continuously kicking each leg one after another with no pause between....

you can also try this by launching into a SG but with arms to your sides instead of in front of you. Then you don't have your arms in front but you can feel your shoulder really dipping, in response to body/hip rotating slightly due to your kick imparting that rotational force...
Thanks David !
The additional suggestions will help. I didn't pause as long between kicks as I think you suggest - to really feel the subtle effects; and I did have my arms out in front, and will try with arms at the side. I have a clearer understanding of what I'm after with this now. I'll try again next Friday with the proper attention. Thanks!
Mike
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  #65  
Old 04-22-2012
wmeg wmeg is offline
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Great stuff in this thread.
I have been on a plateau for a while, couldn't lose a stroke for love nor money.
Have had the 2b kick for a while but this adds another dimension to it.
Did some work on it and dropped 4 strokes on 25m.
I am only working on the legs and leg,arm,hip timing part of the equation
Sometimes the timing absolutely clicks and the propulsion is amazing
Thanks
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  #66  
Old 04-28-2012
Mike from NS Mike from NS is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachDavidShen View Post
try to kick one leg at a time, pausing between kicks to really feel the kick causing a hip rotation, which causes a slight angle to the body, with shoulder dipping downward.

make sure you aren't flutter kicking, meaning continuously kicking each leg one after another with no pause between....

you can also try this by launching into a SG but with arms to your sides instead of in front of you. Then you don't have your arms in front but you can feel your shoulder really dipping, in response to body/hip rotating slightly due to your kick imparting that rotational force...
David,

Tried this yesterday (my weekly swim time) with positive results ! Felt the hip rotation which increased with each kick ... and even felt the kick as being hip driven. This is a big step forward for me - being a knee kicker. Pausing after each kick helped give time to let the kick take effect and the feeling come through.

I appreciate your input and also this thread is too valuable to slip down the list.
Thanks !
Mike
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  #67  
Old 04-29-2012
jenson1a jenson1a is offline
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Default Which hip with each kick?

I know that in the 2 beat kick that if the right arm is pulling, the right leg kicks. This forces my right hip to go up and left shoulder down.

But in the exercise you suggest, you are doing sg with hands at side. When I initiate a kick with my right leg, my right hip goes down-along with my right shoulder. This is exactly the opposite of what happens when I pull with the opposite arm when I am swimming. If I really want my right hip to go up,(without the pull) I have to really concentrate on doing that.

So my question is: when doing sg, do I just let the kick come naturally or do I try to imitate exactly what I do when swimming full stroke?

This is a great thread, but I did wonder about the suggested drill mentioned above.

Sherry
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  #68  
Old 04-29-2012
CoachDavidShen CoachDavidShen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jenson1a View Post
I know that in the 2 beat kick that if the right arm is pulling, the right leg kicks. This forces my right hip to go up and left shoulder down.

But in the exercise you suggest, you are doing sg with hands at side. When I initiate a kick with my right leg, my right hip goes down-along with my right shoulder. This is exactly the opposite of what happens when I pull with the opposite arm when I am swimming. If I really want my right hip to go up,(without the pull) I have to really concentrate on doing that.

So my question is: when doing sg, do I just let the kick come naturally or do I try to imitate exactly what I do when swimming full stroke?

This is a great thread, but I did wonder about the suggested drill mentioned above.

Sherry
it is possible that you are driving your hip down on the same side to get the kick initiated because it is awkward launching in a SG but with your hands at your side. you might also be wanting to use your hip flexors, upper thigh, lower abdomen muscles to initiate the action, when the kicking action really more about the lower leg.

try this: launch into SG, with hands on your side or not. then pick a leg to kick. let the knee drop on that leg slightly. it basically just relaxes at the knee and begins to bend. the foot is still at the same level as the body though. the relaxation at the knee actually cocks your leg for the kick. then only snap the lower part of your leg at the knee. don't use the upper leg to kick the leg.

in reaction to this kick, your hip should rotate slightly up on the same side as the kicking leg.

other tips: in the beginning to learn the movement, you can cock the leg a bit more to really feel what it's like to kick only with the lower leg. once you think you've got the hang of it, then quickly move to letting the knee relax only a small distance. you do not want to cock your leg so much that it is nearing your butt. it will present more drag to the water, so you want to ultimately cock your leg minimally for the kick, and practice snapping your kick with what little space it travels.

also work hard to keep the non-kicking leg absolutely still.

if that doesn't work well, then try this. launch into SG with or without your hands at sides. relax one knee, letting it drop a little. then return the leg back to straight without kicking. pause. relax the other knee letting it drop a little and return it back to straight. pause. repeat.

when you get a feel for this, then its relax one knee, and then a kick after that. pause. repeat with the other side, pause. repeat. see if you can get the correct rotation of the hip with each kick.

Last edited by CoachDavidShen : 04-29-2012 at 04:20 PM.
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  #69  
Old 04-29-2012
jenson1a jenson1a is offline
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Thanks for the clarification. I will give this a try tomorrow morning. Just wanted to make sure I am doing it right--I have spent close to 50 years swimming wrong (or inefficiently)

Tks again

Sherry
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  #70  
Old 05-15-2012
terry terry is offline
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Default Cautions on 'snapping' or 'explosive' actions

I missed this thread when it was active last month, but it came to my attention today when another TI Coach forwarded me an email he received, including a link to this thread, querying whether this emphasis on snapping and exploding represented a 'new' TI technique. My response is the phrases I quote below differ significantly from how TI technique principles are described in our books and on our web site and taught at our workshops. It may be that the impressions Ladyfish took away from the clinic reflect her own understanding of these things.

With regard to the importance of "3 S's" - Stillness, Stability and Streamlining -- I concur wholeheartedly. However, the phrases below -- taken from several posts -- leave a very different impression from what I strive to leave when teaching.

The finishing snap (push hard and quickly!) creates pushback from the water which propels the elbow forward . . . explosive motion . . .

It feels like "explode-recover-explode-recover".

This action pushes the left hip up out of the water (if your left leg snaps). So the focus is this snapping action rather than driving the opposite hip down.

There is one more snap which comes in the last 6 or so inches of the pull before the hand exits. The resistance of the water against your palm makes the wrist bend and creates a rebound like feeling that propels your elbow forward on recovery faster.


I'll clarify, as succinctly as I can, how my view of TI Technique differs:

1) 'Exploding' or 'snapping' actions are unsustainable in terms of how both the muscles and the water respond. The muscles tire quickly when motor units are recruited at high speed. And -- unless the swimmer has the highest level of skill -- moving a limb or body part rapidly is virtually certain to produce far more turbulence than propulsion. Finally, we believe quite strongly that swimmers should avoid doing anything 'hard.'

2) An emphasis on pushing the low hip up, rather than the high hip down directly contradicts our First Principle of Propulsion: "Direct 'available' forces before generating muscular forces." The high hip has both body mass and gravity in its favor. It takes very little effort to initiate the weight shift that drives it down.

3) And finally the energy that moves the elbow forward on recovery, should be drawn -- again -- from the 'free' energy of the weight shift. It's far more about conserving the momentum that sends the hand back - and transferring it smoothly forward by circling/swinging the elbow loosely upon release of the water as the hand exits.

However, in the first thread in the Favorite Practices conference "Tempo/SPL/Pace "Pop Quiz" I describe four essential options for combining SPL and Tempo. One is Low Tempo/SPL and High Speed. This has elements like the extended gliding phase, and 'compressed' propulsion in explode/recover. However when doing this I take great care to avoid explosive or abrupt motion. Rather the emphasis is entirely on integrated movement. Firing all available motor units together, not explosively. See posts 7 & 10 for a detailed description.
And in the 2nd thread on that conference "Swimming with a light touch to increase efficiency" I've posted a practice I did just yesterday with that sort of set.
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Last edited by terry : 05-15-2012 at 07:51 PM.
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