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  #11  
Old 12-14-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swim2Bfree View Post
You seem to be conflating "shoulder-driven technique" and "windmill style." They're not the same. "Windmill style" typically refers to straight-arm recovery, but that's not equivalent to shoulder-driven technique. Indeed, "windmill style" is quite possible with hip-driven technique. Janet's freestyle happens to be BOTH shoulder-driven and windmill style.

Notice Gary Hall's article does not once use the phrase "windmill style."



Why not, Coach? Please be specific.
Still waiting on a response to swim2bfree's question.
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  #12  
Old 12-21-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swim2Bfree View Post
You seem to be conflating "shoulder-driven technique" and "windmill style." They're not the same. "Windmill style" typically refers to straight-arm recovery, but that's not equivalent to shoulder-driven technique. Indeed, "windmill style" is quite possible with hip-driven technique. Janet's freestyle happens to be BOTH shoulder-driven and windmill style.

Notice Gary Hall's article does not once use the phrase "windmill style."



Why not, Coach? Please be specific.
I'm not sure what the question is anymore.

Issue #1
Janet is fast because:
1) She has great balance in the water, and creates little drag
2) She's creating effective propulsion that doesn't get in her way
3) She can sustain her combination of rate & length in a way that equals sustainable speed for her.


Issue #2
You can swim a hip driven freestyle with either a 2 beat or a 6 beat kick.
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Last edited by CoachSuzanne : 12-21-2011 at 06:27 PM.
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  #13  
Old 12-21-2011
CoachBillG CoachBillG is offline
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If you look carefully at Janet's hand position in relation to the elbow, it is either in line with it or slightly below it. Due to her 80 + cadence it is difficult to see this but it is not a true "wind mill". In addition to the high cadence, she has tremendous snap / power and precise timing in her 2 beat kick.

Do you want to swim like this?.....it depends really on how prone you are to injury and if you have sensitive shoulders. If you are good with the shoulders, then try it. The advantage is that you can increase the cadence easier due to the arm being in recovery quicker (elbow not as high, less arch) and having a wider arm entry into the water. Some things you will need is impeccable balance in relation to the surface of the water due to the downward torque and pressing of the shoulder girdle. If you don't have this, you will continually drive yourself down under the water.

Whether you like / agree with the way she swims or not, Janet has put in her 10.000 + hours of deliberate practice and this is the way she rolls!
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  #14  
Old 12-21-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swim2Bfree View Post
You seem to be conflating "shoulder-driven technique" and "windmill style." They're not the same. "Windmill style" typically refers to straight-arm recovery, but that's not equivalent to shoulder-driven technique. Indeed, "windmill style" is quite possible with hip-driven technique. Janet's freestyle happens to be BOTH shoulder-driven and windmill style..
The previous poster to Suzanne (OB3517) originally "conflated" (I am trusting you that this word is appropriate here) "shoulder driven" and "windmill' when they wrote "Shoulder Driven technique like Janet Evans." Suzanne replied to that post, and didn't pounce on their mistake. Who knew it would incite such a reaction because she used Janet's correct stroke name, Windmill (or Body Driven) when the previous Poster didn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swim2Bfree View Post
Notice Gary Hall's article does not once use the phrase "windmill style.".
Gary Hall doesn't use the phrase once in the article because he adopts the name, Body Driven Freestyle, not Windmill and then dismisses either term for the article because "seldom do we see long distance swimmers use it" (Windmill, Straightarm Recover, Body Driven, place your name here). In a thread about Janet Evans, no less, LOL. And S2BF, you even said there are many using the stroke from 50m to 67 miles or something...who knows?

Quote:
Originally Posted by swim2Bfree View Post
Why not, Coach? Please be specific.
Specifically, the reason Gary Hall's position on endorsing the shoulder driven technique over the hip driven technique unless you are employing a 6 beat "and preferably a strong 6 beat" kick, really doesn't hold water, can be seen in the video of the current 1500m world record a hip driven technique with longer strokes, and not an overpowering kick (wow, until the last 50, looks like a motorboat). Triathletes can choose a hip driven freestyle technique, with a kick that will not kill your bike and run, and be fast to T1. That is why, specifically, Hall Sr.'s position on this does not hold water.

I am still curious as to why, specifically, Janet Evans stroke efficiency is related to her body style, maybe I missed your reply. A little light humor?
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  #15  
Old 12-21-2011
swim2Bfree swim2Bfree is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
I'm not sure what the question is anymore.
The original question was (I think), Why is Janet Evans fast? A secondary question was, What is the reasoning behind your claim that Gary Hall's argument "doesn't hold water"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
Janet is fast because:
1) She has great balance in the water, and creates little drag
2) She's creating effective propulsion that doesn't get in her way
3) She can sustain her combination of rate & length in a way that equals sustainable speed for her.
This is unquestionably true, but it's not specific to Janet Evans - it's true of any elite swimmer. What you left unanswered is the unstated question (confirmed by andyinnorway's post): How does Janet manage to go so fast, despite using such "un-TI-like" technique? Is she an exception to be ignored, or is there something we can learn from her?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
You can swim a hip driven freestyle with either a 2 beat or a 6 beat kick.
Yes, but it's tough to be FAST using hip-driven technique with only a 2-beat kick. That's Gary Hall's point. Elite swimmers using hip-driven technique almost always back it up with a strong 6BK. Elite swimmers using a 2BK almost always combine it with higher-SR shoulder-driven technique.

Of course, you CAN swim hip-driven with a 2BK... unless you want to be fast.
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  #16  
Old 12-21-2011
swim2Bfree swim2Bfree is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rbs24h View Post
The previous poster to Suzanne (OB3517) originally "conflated" (I am trusting you that this word is appropriate here) "shoulder driven" and "windmill' when they wrote "Shoulder Driven technique like Janet Evans."
Actually, ob3517 got it right: Janet does use shoulder-driven technique. "Body-driven" technique = shoulder-driven technique with a straight-arm recovery. Body-driven is a subset of shoulder-driven.

Conflate (transitive verb):
1a. to bring together
1b. confuse
2. to combine (as two readings of a text) into a composite whole

Quote:
Originally Posted by rbs24h View Post
Specifically, the reason Gary Hall's position on endorsing the shoulder driven technique over the hip driven technique unless you are employing a 6 beat "and preferably a strong 6 beat" kick, really doesn't hold water, can be seen in the video of the current 1500m world record a hip driven technique with longer strokes, and not an overpowering kick (wow, until the last 50, looks like a motorboat).
In the 1500m, Sun Yang uses a 6BK with an occasional 4-beat cycle. I agree, it's not "overpowering" until the last 50m. Hip-driven swimmers without his height (such as Erik Vendt and Larsen Jensen) generally don't have that luxury - they need an overpowering kick.

Can you show me an elite freestyler with hip-driven technique and a 2BK?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rbs24h View Post
Triathletes can choose a hip driven freestyle technique, with a kick that will not kill your bike and run, and be fast to T1. That is why, specifically, Hall Sr.'s position on this does not hold water.
I guess it depends on what you mean by "fast." Do you see many of these folks at FOP?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rbs24h View Post
I am still curious as to why, specifically, Janet Evans stroke efficiency is related to her body style, maybe I missed your reply.
Because she's short (5 ft, 4 in). Short people who are fast swimmers almost always have high-tempo, shoulder-driven technique. They don't have the luxury of gliding like a clipper ship.
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  #17  
Old 12-21-2011
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCX-NhIaWwg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kVJesvqIz4


Also the current mens 60-64 5k 2011 National Champion uses a 2BK. But we already knew that

There is a lot of black and white thinking in this thread.
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  #18  
Old 12-21-2011
swim2Bfree swim2Bfree is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCX-NhIaWwg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kVJesvqIz4

Also the current mens 60-64 5k 2011 National Champion uses a 2BK. But we already knew that

There is a lot of black and white thinking in this thread.
Saying there is more than one way to swim well qualifies as black and white thinking? Interesting.

Regarding the videos you posted: All three swimmers (Stockbauer, Rigamonti, and Kieren Perkins) are using shoulder-driven technique. All three are using tempos of more than 90 SPM in a 1500. There is no appreciable glide at the front of any of their strokes.

Gary Hall even cites Kieren Perkins specifically as a shoulder-driven swimmer.

I will concede that it is possible to win the Masters 60-64 5K National Championship with a 2BK.
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  #19  
Old 12-22-2011
rbs24h rbs24h is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swim2Bfree View Post
Actually, ob3517 got it right: Janet does use shoulder-driven technique. "Body-driven" technique = shoulder-driven technique with a straight-arm recovery. Body-driven is a subset of shoulder-driven..
Take your word for it but thought Hall's article said Body Driven = Shoulder + Hip Driven + Straightarm Recovery but that not many distance swimmers use it (straightarm recovery), so he dismissed it as it was a triathlon article he was writing. No matter, point taken that J.E. is shoulder driven w/ straightarm recovery..

Quote:
Originally Posted by swim2Bfree View Post
Conflate (transitive verb):
1a. to bring together
1b. confuse
2. to combine (as two readings of a text) into a composite whole...
Thank you, now I am conflated.


Quote:
Originally Posted by swim2Bfree View Post
In the 1500m, Sun Yang uses a 6BK with an occasional 4-beat cycle. I agree, it's not "overpowering" until the last 50m. Hip-driven swimmers without his height (such as Erik Vendt and Larsen Jensen) generally don't have that luxury - they need an overpowering kick...
I will look at video again. But now height is the issue not the kick?? Can't change on me now S2BF.. :) Would have loved to have a HRM on top 3 in that race though...

Quote:
Originally Posted by swim2Bfree View Post
Can you show me an elite freestyler with hip-driven technique and a 2BK?...

Quote:
Originally Posted by swim2Bfree View Post
I guess it depends on what you mean by "fast." Do you see many of these folks at FOP?
I think these two quotes go to my point. Not only do I not necessarily see them at the front of pack, I don't necessarily see them anywhere in the pack. The majority are taught to kick and pull. I think it (hip driven, TI, for example) is an underused freestyle technique for the masses, especially triathlon Age Groupers and Adult Onset Swimmers. And Hall Sr., when asked to write how TRIATHLETES should go about "Choosing Your BEST Freestyle Technique" recommends to beginners, on a Triathlon Website, using a high tempo, energy consuming technique to this group and I simply cannot understand his logic when this is his audience. So to me, it still doesn't "hold water"..especially in its referenced context.

However, I will agree that Elite Freestylers are faster using some form of a 6 beat kick if you will agree that the Age Group Triathlete can successfully learn and use a hip driven 2 beat kick and still be FOP and more importantly, have more energy for bike and run.


Quote:
Originally Posted by swim2Bfree View Post
Because she's short (5 ft, 4 in). Short people who are fast swimmers almost always have high-tempo, shoulder-driven technique. They don't have the luxury of gliding like a clipper ship.
Thank you, I agree,
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  #20  
Old 12-22-2011
swim2Bfree swim2Bfree is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rbs24h View Post
Take your word for it but thought Hall's article said Body Driven = Shoulder + Hip Driven + Straightarm Recovery
Re-reading the article, you're right - Hall isn't totally clear what is meant by "body driven freestyle." In a different article, he clarifies: "The body driven freestyle, as described by Mike Bottom, is really just shoulder driven with a straight arm recovery."

Quote:
Originally Posted by rbs24h View Post
I will look at video again. But now height is the issue not the kick?? Can't change on me now S2BF.. :)
:) Not THE issue, but certainly AN issue - in determining the most efficient technique for an individual swimmer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rbs24h View Post
Would have loved to have a HRM on top 3 in that race though...
What would you expect to find? My hypothesis: If you got the average heart rate (effort) of all 8 swimmers, and the average stroke rate of all 8, you would find the two variables are uncorrelated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rbs24h View Post
I think it (hip driven, TI, for example) is an underused freestyle technique for the masses, especially triathlon Age Groupers and Adult Onset Swimmers. And Hall Sr., when asked to write how TRIATHLETES should go about "Choosing Your BEST Freestyle Technique" recommends to beginners, on a Triathlon Website, using a high tempo, energy consuming technique to this group and I simply cannot understand his logic when this is his audience.
I think any philosophy of stroke technique can be over-applied. Gary Hall's advice is less relevant to novice/lower-intermediate swimmers, who are simply trying to finish a 1.2 or 2.4-mile swim without exhausting themselves. Hall was probably over-selling, given his audience on a popular triathlon website.

Other philosophies of stroke technique can be over-applied and over-sold, as well - depending on the audience.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rbs24h View Post
I will agree that Elite Freestylers are faster using some form of a 6 beat kick if you will agree that the Age Group Triathlete can successfully learn and use a hip driven 2 beat kick and still be FOP and more importantly, have more energy for bike and run.
Maybe not FOP - but yes, a hip-driven 2BK does help conserve energy.

Last edited by swim2Bfree : 12-22-2011 at 04:35 AM.
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