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  #41  
Old 07-29-2016
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Interesting article. People have all kind of walks. THe same can be said of swimming styles.
Its easy to see what arms and legs are doing, but the underlying invisable core actions are hard to describe.
Even if we think we are making a certain movement its not certain we are actually doing it.

Suxanne, do you have the idea you move one side of the hip forward and the other backward during your swim, or is it more a pure rotation around the spine?
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  #42  
Old 07-30-2016
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
Interesting article. People have all kind of walks. THe same can be said of swimming styles.
Its easy to see what arms and legs are doing, but the underlying invisable core actions are hard to describe.
Even if we think we are making a certain movement its not certain we are actually doing it.

Suzanne, do you have the idea you move one side of the hip forward and the other backward during your swim, or is it more a pure rotation around the spine?
Small amount of rotation, but mostly isometric contraction abs on alternating sides. Definatly not one hip "forward" in relationship to my body, but visualizing it moving forward as I swim creates that isometric contraction that may feel las if its moving forward. but if it does in reality it's going to shif tbody mass like that figure shows.
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  #43  
Old 07-30-2016
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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More no klick swimming.
Foundation is a straight floating vessel.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZK2...ature=youtu.be

And then some special ingredients are added so it becomes swimming instead of floating.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RG1w...ature=youtu.be
These special ingredients make that he is moving forwards this way in the water a mile in about 19 -19 1/2 minutes.

This is the TI version of someone with about the same build and the same pace. Both almost zero 2BK.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9pr4oxM5cc

How does TI see the advantages and disadvantages of either style?

Last edited by Zenturtle : 07-30-2016 at 10:05 AM.
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  #44  
Old 07-31-2016
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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not much life here, so I will ventilate my own thoughts about hip drive in a non kick swim.

A treelog cant generate hip drive. A straight axis without a kick cant generate much hipdrive either I think. So how do people generate hip drive without a kick?
To get a good powerfull hipdrive without a kick, you just have to break that axis.
Shinji kicking his butt to the surface is actually doing the same, but here some stills from the ankle band swimmer.

Pictures speak louder than words.
By bending the bodyline you are shifting weight around the central axis which gives more mass resistance to your anchoring arms and legs. In a sense you are accelerating this mass but once it is accelerated it moves forwards to the uncoming next catch, so people can say it al starts with the hips rotation, but there really is no initating or reacting part.
Thats just determined by your frame of reference at a certain point in time.
Its an ungoing rhythm with a phase shift between force and momentum. A bit like the way a steel ball bounces on a spring.

The most extreme positions:

Start position. Start of power phase.


Unstable bridge falls to the right side


Reversing the bridge right before power phase (= picture 1)


Charles unassisted rotation comes pretty close as a simular example of breaking the axis to generate rotation.
The dynamics are different and perhaps its more about buoyancy and mass there, but it touches the same subject.
In swimming it always comes down to finding that optimal balance between an effective full body propulsive mechanism and keeping drag to a minimum.
Thats a compromise, and in a compromise something has to give.
THats the straight axis in this case.
Compared to kneekicking, you can see that this axis breaking is only a very little sin against streanline.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 07-31-2016 at 02:06 PM.
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  #45  
Old 07-31-2016
Danny Danny is offline
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What you describe sounds like an undulation to me. In butterfly, you don't rotate because you are stroking with both arms, but if you undulate and stroke on only one side then you rotate away from your stroking arm.

The other question one can ask is whether it is really possible to only push water back with your arm without pushing down at all. Obviously one wants to minimize the downward pressure, but some of it may always be there.
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  #46  
Old 07-31-2016
Danny Danny is offline
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By the way, this undulation is the opposite of what Charles was doing in one sense. Charles had a pull-buoy between his legs to make his hips the most buoyant part. Without that pull-buoy, your lungs are still the most buoyant part. When you kick with both legs by bending slightly at the waist, you are forcing your lungs deeper into the water. The easiest way for them to rise back to the surface is when your body turns.
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  #47  
Old 07-31-2016
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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yeah, you could call it a small dolphin kick. I think the most important is kick rebalance reaction to the pull, but the bended body has some effect on the roll too.
With the hips hign braced on the foot it wants to fall to the non stroking side.
How that exactly ties in with propulsion isnt totally clear but it can be used to drive the extending side in the water.
It seems the side of the leg that makes this movement isnt super important.
If its the opposite side to the entering front side it works better obviously, but one leg swimmers have the same kick timing and can rotate to either side without much problems.
I have exactly the same kick mechanism with 2BK backstroke, only I have to make a bridge by anchoring on the bottom side of the foot to drive hips up and over.
Its all the same only upside down with the backside of the leg instead of the frontside.

Quote:
The other question one can ask is whether it is really possible to only push water back with your arm without pushing down at all. Obviously one wants to minimize the downward pressure, but some of it may always be there.
I think this is the essence of being able to generate propulsion with rotation.
Imagine only having propulsive surfaces 100% perpendicular to the rotating axis.
Then its impossible to have force transfer from rotation to a force facing backwards. Like a propellor with zero degrees pitch.
The human limitation in limbs rang of movement makes it necessary to transfer rotation into propulsion to achieve an optimal stroke.
If we are only allowed to push back when hand and forearm are perfectly vertical, our propulsive path would be very short indeed.
Unless you are Sun Yang or Camille Muffat.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 07-31-2016 at 10:53 PM.
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  #48  
Old 08-01-2016
Danny Danny is offline
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Today I tried the idea of swimming without a kick, that is, using a small dolphin kick to achieve body rotation. I found this really helpful and liked it a lot. I am inclined to think of swimming styles in terms of paradigms, and I now see two different kicking paradigms emerging in my mind. The first is what I'll call the 2 beat kick, and the best illustration of this seems to be from Coach Mandy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FiPpiC0629I
The second is "swimming with no kick" or only a very small dolphin kick as discussed and shown in the videos above. Actually, as is the case with all paradigms, there is in fact a continuum of styles between these two. Even the swimmers shown in ZT's video above with "no kick" do separate their feet slightly as they rotate from side to side. The discovery I made today was that I could trade off the two beat kick and still get rotation just by using a very small dolphin and timing it to my arm stroke. I found that it helped me maintain a lower stroke count over longer distance than when I am using the standard 2BK. My sense at this point is that the 2BK is better for me when I want to sprint, but I can't maintain this technique over longer distances without my SPL creeping up. Using the small dolphin seemed to work better over distance.

One of the things I notice with the small dolphin is how actively I am using my abs when I stroke with my arm. I will need to practice this more to sort out the differences between this and the 2BK, but I liked how it felt today!

Thanks for pointing it out ZT!
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  #49  
Old 08-01-2016
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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See how this straighter kcik works the abs harder and you get the idea of kicking your hips up and over an imaginary fence in the water?And the front/side stomach crunch feeling on the minimal downkick? If you are lucky you get a rhythm hopping from one side to the other, but that takes some stroke rate and power for me. Maybe you can get it going at an easy turnover.

next time when you go to your ususal kick. feel the difference in the direction you think you are kicking in.
A knee kick pushes you forward more without having much effect on the height of the hips. a straighter leg kick levers the hips up more from the top of your feet kicking down.
My favorite core strength training is combining this straightish kick with a waterpolo front end.
Very tiring.

But like you said, its a continuum between an extreme kneekick and a completely stiff and straight leg kick.

YOu should try a straight leg kick with fins one time. Thats really hard to do!
The knee desperatly wants to bend, and if you prevent that, the hip-core has to work very hard.
If you stick to it for a while you can get a solid feeling of rotation out this kick with only 1 -2 inch leg kick amplitude.
Small amplitude, but big, almost static force. A straighter leg needs more ankle bend to get any propulsion, so for propulsion its not ideal for most.

I think a straighter leg kick looks much better than a kneekick though.
Whats a fish? Only a spine with muscles. Very strong muscles to generate relatively much force on a big surface with little undulation amplitude.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 08-01-2016 at 11:19 PM.
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  #50  
Old 08-02-2016
Danny Danny is offline
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If the truth be told, my 2BK has always been a problem. My right side is better than my left, and on the left side I have to concentrate on getting my hip down and stretching the hip flexor before the kick. This may be due to a balance problem and a tendency to over-rotate to the right due to poor shoulder flexibility. Anyway, the dolphin kick doesn’t seem to be as sensitive to these problems, which may be why it is easier for me to maintain it over distance.
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