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Old 05-14-2014
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Talvi
Default Slipping

I was told yesterday that the main thing wrong with my stroke was my hand moving too fast during the mid section of the stroke and that it should follow more of an "S" path in the water.

I've seen that movement demonstrated in a Japanese training video I came across but that was dryland and I can't now even find that!

Has anyone any comments on that "S" path or any videos demonstrating it in the water?
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A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
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"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov
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Old 05-14-2014
Raini Raini is offline
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Hi Talvi.
May I ask who gave you that advise? Was it someone who practises TI? The reason I'm asking is when I first started to swim whole stroke a well meaning non TI swimmer at my local pool kept trying to get me to follow an "S" path (he also told me I wasn't kicking fast enough) but I was reading an old TI book titled Swimming Made Easy at the time and decided not to take his advise.
I've just taken it off my bookshelf and I am looking at chapter 7 which has the heading.
Developing an Effective Pull:
It's All about Holding Patterns,
Not "S" Patterns.
Sorry I haven't got time to read the whole chapter at the moment as I'm going to work but I will try and have a recap later.
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  #3  
Old 05-14-2014
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CoachStuartMcDougal CoachStuartMcDougal is offline
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Hi Talvi,

You don't want to consciously think of drawing an "S curve", which can cause overuse injuries shoulder and rotator. You only need to think the arm is coming straight back. A natural "S curve" will happen as a consequence of correct position and timing as you roll from one edge to the other. Coach Dave describes this best in this video: High Elbow Catch

Here's Shinji in Before After Ti video. Watch from 00:24 the below surface front view in slo-mo. You will see the path of the underwater recovery as the body rotates from one edge to the other; as shoulders are narrow on one edge, widen at transition, then narrow on opposite edge - the natural "S curve" happens with body rotation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FrSTJLN_CY

Stuart
MindBodyAndSWIM

Last edited by CoachStuartMcDougal : 05-14-2014 at 03:34 PM. Reason: Added Shinji video
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Old 05-14-2014
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal View Post
Hi Talvi,

You don't want to consciously think of drawing an "S curve", which can cause overuse injuries shoulder and rotator. You only need to think the arm is coming straight back. A natural "S curve" will happen as a consequence of correct position and timing as you roll from one edge to the other. Coach Dave describes this best in this video: High Elbow Catch

Here's Shinji in Before After Ti video. Watch from 00:24 the below surface front view in slo-mo. You will see the path of the underwater recovery as the body rotates from one edge to the other; as shoulders are narrow on one edge, widen at transition, then narrow on opposite edge - the natural "S curve" happens with body rotation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FrSTJLN_CY

Stuart
MindBodyAndSWIM

Great explanation Stuart, thanks very much for that :)

After i watched the Japanese video I wondered if that wasn't what was being described but having you say it makes it a forebrain thing that I can engage with. Those head on shots of swimming make what you say very clear. I was implementing the advice poorly and I'm not sure my new coaching friend saw that.

I find Coach Dave's video a problem as practising in that dryland way the first time I saw it pulled something in my shoulder - it was probably weak anyway, but I can't do those dryland drills. My right shoulder has a minor problem of some sort, some sort of soreness around the joint area.

After watching the second video what i see in them is the angle of the forearm being different. For me a focus on raising the elbow as opposed to aligning the forearm, pobably the saame thing in the end, puts a stress on my shoulder that aggravates the soreness.

My own dryland practice a few weeks back was to lie on my back! So the same as being in the water, just upside down! I stretched my arms out, in inverted SG, and then "broke"/bent my elbows until the were pointing up at the ceiling, keeping my upper arm relaxed on the bed and doing it all using as little force and in the most cofortable way I could. The result every time I did this was that my upper arms moved down until they were in line with my collar bones. I felt that if I had more flexible/strong shoulders the angle would be less i.e my upper arms would be further above my head but for me I could feel that trying to reduce the 90' angle of upper arm to bodyline introduced the stress.

Thanks again :)

@ Raini, thanks for that. He's not a TI coach but he complimented my kick and talked about how swimmers try to use their legs too much, he said that not much power comes from that but a lot of drag, he liked my roll (skating) and quiet approach to swimming, and he spoke of his own approach in which he started each session with swimmers "playing" in the water, floating and generally getting used to being in it before starting to swim. So all in all I think it's a question of "all roads lead to Rome" a bit like Charles was writing on another thread :) http://totalimmersion.net/forum/show...63&postcount=7
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A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
~ George Kelly

"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov

Last edited by Talvi : 05-14-2014 at 06:28 PM.
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Old 05-14-2014
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talvi View Post
I felt that if I had more flexible/strong shoulders the angle would be less i.e my upper arms would be further above my head but for me I could feel that trying to reduce the 90' angle of upper arm to bodyline introduced the stress.
I've only met 1 swimmer in all of my coaching who could not catch the water in teh way TI teaches due to shoulder pain. I have met scores of them who claimed they could not, until I showed them how to move their body.

The problem with laying on your back on the bed, while creative and will certainly get you a good start, is that it nearly forces you to bring the upper arm down with the action you describe. At least standing up, you can use body rotation to allow the shoulder to get into a friendlier position without pain.
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  #6  
Old 05-15-2014
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
.. The problem with laying on your back on the bed, while creative and will certainly get you a good start, is that it nearly forces you to bring the upper arm down with the action you describe. At least standing up, you can use body rotation to allow the shoulder to get into a friendlier position without pain.
Exactly, it DOES force me to do that (but I always work to avoid pain - as per a yoga approach). And I could roll on the bed so no problems in doing that. However, what I see in the video is that his arm never moves out of the plane of his body so lying flat shouldn't be a problem.

Could you identify the moment in the video in the slo-mo section between 0:24 - 0:33 when you see it doing so?
__________________
A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
~ George Kelly

"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov
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  #7  
Old 05-14-2014
CoachBobM CoachBobM is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talvi View Post
I think it's a question of "all roads lead to Rome"
Well, perhaps. But some roads are certainly bumpier than others! ;-)

One of the things that led me to TI was the fact that I had developed shoulder discomfort after attending a (non-TI) stroke clinic on freestyle at the YMCA where I was swimming.

But my residual shoulder problems went away after I attended a TI weekend workshop about 6 months later. The main difference was that TI began by getting our core bodies doing the right thing, and only then added the armstroke.

I notice that you titled this thread "Slipping" but don't seem to have mentioned slipping anywhere else in this thread. Do you actually feel that your stroking arm is slipping through the water?

A good training technique for reducing slippage is to use fistgloves (available through this site) for the first 20 minutes or so of each practice. Fistgloves force you to learn to hold onto the water with your forearms, so that when you take them off, you end up holding onto the water with both your forearm and your hand.


Bob
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