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  #11  
Old 10-05-2014
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomoy View Post
Ah - something to look forward to ;-)
RofL, yeah, thanks for that move from Flipper to Ken Dodd!!

I think my waters have already started leaking, so I'm considering a bat-pole for the beadroom. Maybe sleeping upside down'll hold the Joker at bay?

Thanks Jane :) and you're welcome.
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A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
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~ Aleksandr Popov

Last edited by Talvi : 10-05-2014 at 09:47 AM.
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  #12  
Old 10-05-2014
jenson1a jenson1a is offline
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ok Jane. I,ll chime in as another female

age is 70 height is 5 ft 3 inches and weight is 150 lbs. (way too much!!)

best time for 100 yds was 2min 9 sec. typical time is 2 min 15 sec

spl is 18/19

I too have small hands and feet and very skinny forearms. wingspan is also 63 inches

good part is that I am pretty buoyant. just wish I could break that elusive 2 minute time

sherry
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  #13  
Old 10-06-2014
jafaremraf jafaremraf is offline
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Originally Posted by jenson1a View Post
ok Jane. I,ll chime in as another female

age is 70 height is 5 ft 3 inches and weight is 150 lbs. (way too much!!)

best time for 100 yds was 2min 9 sec. typical time is 2 min 15 sec

spl is 18/19

I too have small hands and feet and very skinny forearms. wingspan is also 63 inches

good part is that I am pretty buoyant. just wish I could break that elusive 2 minute time

sherry
Hi Sherry

Allowing for the slight difference in pool length (yds vs mtrs) we seem to have similar times and SPL . My wingspan is 61". I think my next step is to persevere with the TT to try and maintain my SPL and gradually increase the pace. Previously I have tried to time the beep to my hand entering the water, but recently, and without the TT, I have been trying to focus on keeping a steady beat with my feet and that seems to have got my stroke a bit more balanced timing wise, so perhaps kicking on the beep will work best for me. I usually go off into la la land with a TT after a while, so it will be interesting to see if I can keep with it this time!

Jane
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  #14  
Old 10-06-2014
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Originally Posted by jafaremraf View Post
... I have been trying to focus on keeping a steady beat with my feet and that seems to have got my stroke a bit more balanced timing wise...


Really interesting idea Jane. Thanks.

p.s
and I know what you mean by la la land viz the TT. I wonder how awkward/irritating it would be to use a TT for walking...
__________________
A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
~ George Kelly

"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov
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  #15  
Old 10-06-2014
jafaremraf jafaremraf is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talvi View Post

p.s
and I know what you mean by la la land viz the TT. I wonder how awkward/irritating it would be to use a TT for walking...
..... Or cycling. i have thought about it to see if my cadence falls into the recommended zone, but la la land on a bike may have more serious consequences.
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  #16  
Old 10-06-2014
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Off topic - but I'm not sure if the TT is helping or hindering me. It's a useful tool but swimming for any distance with it seems to screw me up.

On Friday I swam 2.5km, with no TT. Looking at the data afterwards I swam the first km at 2:13 and 18spl and the last 500m at 2:11 and 20spl. After that I clipped on my TT, set at 1.40, and swam 250m. The data for that was 2:16 and 22spl !! I was stunned. I took the TT off and swam a set of 25m's and my spl went down to 16 with some 14's. My theory for this is that the TT diverts my attention.
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A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
~ George Kelly

"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov

Last edited by Talvi : 10-06-2014 at 09:39 AM.
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  #17  
Old 10-06-2014
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CoachDave CoachDave is offline
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Default Pacing from a coach's perspective

I'm a big dude, not as lean as I once was (blame the English Channel) but still 6'5. I use the stroke myself and coach a wide range of athletes with this technique, and have for a while. Currently, if going a strong pace, I'm probably holding 11 SPL and depending on conditioning would average 1:03-1:08 per 100. If I could take a sabbatical, I don't doubt my ability to get back under 5:00 in a 500, but that's not happening anytime soon.

Fastest, in college, was a 1:00.04 average for a 1650, maintaining stroke count and negative splitting until a nice sprint at the end. 500 averaged :57.10. College was 15 years ago.

One of my swimmers maintained his 11 SPL into college and got down into the low 4:40s without summer training- still a smooth, front quadrant, efficient stroke.

Dave
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  #18  
Old 10-06-2014
jafaremraf jafaremraf is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talvi View Post
Off topic - but I'm not sure if the TT is helping or hindering me. It's a useful tool but swimming for any distance with it seems to screw me up.

On Friday I swam 2.5km, with no TT. Looking at the data afterwards I swam the first km at 2:13 and 18spl and the last 500m at 2:11 and 20spl. After that I clipped on my TT, set at 1.40, and swam 250m. The data for that was 2:16 and 22spl !! I was stunned. I took the TT off and swam a set of 25m's and my spl went down to 16 with some 14's. My theory for this is that the TT diverts my attention.
I'm fairly sure that my swimming deteriorates when I use the TT, hence why I stopped using it. But in the back of my mind I know I haven't given the TT a chance. I need to have the belief that with a lot of perseverance and following the recommended way to use it, I stand a chance of improving. Start sllooowww until my stroke is synchronised with the beep, only then wind it up a notch. It's the way I learn a new tricky (for me) piece of music using a metronome, get it right slow and gradually wind it up. So I 'think' I know what I need to do.

Now I'm not suggesting you haven't given the TT a good chance, Robin, because I think you're probably one of the hardest working swimmers on this forum! But I wonder how many hours of training using a TT people like Terry have done in order to get comfortable with the TT...... before the TT really starts to come into being very useful as a training aid, rather than an annoyance! And I also think I needed to be fairly comfortable with my stroke, and I haven't been. It's taken a long way to get where I am now and when I revisit some of the threads and videos from way back, I glean nuggets of information that have enabled me to feel balanced and in rhythm in a way I haven't done up to now. So maybe now is the time to dig the TT out from the bottom of my swim bag and stick with it for as long as it takes!

FWIW Robin, from your postings you seem to have settled into a comfortable place with your stroke (looked good in the videos) so maybe you could focus even more on using the TT.....making sure you don't up the pace until you are synchronised with the beep.

But what do I know......!!!! Lol
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  #19  
Old 10-07-2014
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Reading Dave's post I suddenly felt like a toddler in the nursery pool after the big boys jump in, but today I realize that Dave's post both answers the OP's question and highlight's the problem with it.

@Dave, a couple of questions:
Are the figures you gave all using a 2bk, and, assuming they are, what difference does adding other kick patterns make to your fastest times?

First then, setting aside the 2bk, and judging from the thread "What is TI", it seems reasonably clear that there not a sufficiently clear definition of what TI is or what it is not that can answer the question of any inherent limitation.

Second, and going on from Dave's numbers, we find we are in the land of "apex" swimmers. For instance, until Johnny Weissmuller broke the mould in the 20's, Dave's times for 500m would have beaten the world record holders for the 100m! For 400m, if we don't nit-pick the odd few seconds, a 1:00/100m pace was the world record up until the mid 70's.

If its possible to who is or who is not swimming TI (setting aside the 2bk), then for all non-olmpians the answer to the OP seems to be that with TI you can swim as fast as you can swim.

p.s
IMO the variables of age, current physical condiction, and lifetime physical condition are the limit factors within which technique and physical conditioning operate.
__________________
A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
~ George Kelly

"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov

Last edited by Talvi : 10-07-2014 at 09:49 AM.
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  #20  
Old 10-07-2014
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Thanks for your thoughts Jane. I always find the experiences of fellow travellers the most helpful. And thanks for all your encouragement! For me I think the support I have found on this forum has been the most valuable thing of all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jafaremraf View Post
I'm fairly sure that my swimming deteriorates when I use the TT, hence why I stopped using it. But in the back of my mind I know I haven't given the TT a chance. I need to have the belief that with a lot of perseverance and following the recommended way to use it, I stand a chance of improving. Start sllooowww until my stroke is synchronised with the beep, only then wind it up a notch. It's the way I learn a new tricky (for me) piece of music using a metronome, get it right slow and gradually wind it up. So I 'think' I know what I need to do.

Now I'm not suggesting you haven't given the TT a good chance, Robin, because I think you're probably one of the hardest working swimmers on this forum! But I wonder how many hours of training using a TT people like Terry have done in order to get comfortable with the TT...... before the TT really starts to come into being very useful as a training aid, rather than an annoyance! And I also think I needed to be fairly comfortable with my stroke, and I haven't been. It's taken a long way to get where I am now and when I revisit some of the threads and videos from way back, I glean nuggets of information that have enabled me to feel balanced and in rhythm in a way I haven't done up to now. So maybe now is the time to dig the TT out from the bottom of my swim bag and stick with it for as long as it takes!

FWIW Robin, from your postings you seem to have settled into a comfortable place with your stroke (looked good in the videos) so maybe you could focus even more on using the TT.....making sure you don't up the pace until you are synchronised with the beep.

But what do I know......!!!! Lol
Interesting what you say about metronomes. I never got on with them but can keep a beat. In the school orchestra I played trumpet. My tutor had a metronome but over the years we only used it once I think. I played (electric) bass later. I never really played at any level of complexity though. Different strokes for different folks maybe. I can see how metronomes work but when I try to use them I feel that everything else moves into the background. It's a bit like my total inability to count while swimming. I push off, immediately focus on the feeling of the water around me, my position and form, how strongly or not I am pushing, my angle in the water, how my arm moves down and up into the first stroke and then I start thinking "Does that count as a stroke? B***R! Can't remember! Just count dammit.... 2, 3 ..." Then after about ten strokes my attention is drawn to my feet or my right arm or my head position and I feel the water on my face or the shape of my arm and then "S**t. 12, 13, or was it 11, here comes the wall, and ... how many strokes was that?!!!?". Forr me it's a choice, focus on swimming or on counting. It's the same with walking, and I think it was for playing music too. I envy peope who can multi-task!

That feeling of "being comfortable with your stroke" was the breakthrough in FS for me. It's how in the end I learned to breathe. From then it's always been the thing that's helped me progress. I always hope to swim sub-2:00 but am beginning to think that the primary variables I wrote about above may well make that unrealistic. My interest has never been to become an athlete or to win races so I maybe become a bit distracted at times. In the end if the activity becomes a chore, endured for the sake of some imagined goal, then I know for me that would be the end of it.

I think that my own path has to be via enjoyment. After all, that is what makes things grow naturally. It's working with the grain, riding winds, surfing. I'm not sure that other than being a tool, like a tuning fork, the TT is really something for me. Having said that, for the 1.00 TT rate I use for a few lengths each session, I think what you say makes sense. And thinking about this, it has helped my stroke at those rates, from a feeling of being frenetic to feeling much more relaxed. Its incredible that 1.10-1.00 looks so gentle and relaxed in others but often still feels like a sprint to me! The TT forced me to fnd a way to keep up with it, and oddly that leads me to discover space in my stroke.

Anyway ... waaaaaay off topic :D
__________________
A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
~ George Kelly

"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov
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