Total Immersion Forums  

Go Back   Total Immersion Forums > Freestyle
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 03-09-2012
Richardsk Richardsk is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,380
Richardsk
Default

Hi Haschu

It may well be not be relevant but it is interesting and entertaining anyway. I know a very skilled and fit breaststroker in my own age group who is a lot faster than I am, and he told me once that one of the practices he engages in is rowing (on a machine, not in a boat). I can conceive of that being valuable to a breaststroker who wants to strengthen the arms and perhaps also the lungs, but of course I am aware of the famous specificity trap that seems to haunt all physical endeavours.

Perhaps repeated short sprints on longish rest using variations of whole stroke, arms and dolphin kick, fast hands drill, and so on would be more efficacious. Who knows?

I have no idea whatsoever what my vital capacity is or even how it is measured. I suppose equipment is required.

It would no doubt be easy to find out by googling it, which I will now do. I hadn't realized how many persons on this forum have medical qualifications.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 03-09-2012
The Parrot The Parrot is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Sherborne, Dorset, UK
Posts: 111
The Parrot
Default Mountain training for cardio/pulmonary benefit

Yup, at great risk of stating the obvious to the medically qualified people on this forum, if you live at altitude in the mountains or even spend sufficient time there to adapt, I understand that your body will respond by increasing the proportion of hemoglobin in the blood and thus the ability to convey oxygen to the working muscles. Also, and again perhaps by definition, staying in the mountains is likely to involve more aerobic exercise, too. This happy state of affairs is why athletes train at altitude before major events. Sadly the benefits do not last very long after returning to sea level. But I'm thinking of Ethiopian marathon runners, Kenyans from the Rift Valley, et al, who have lived most of their lives at altitude and seem to have outstanding heart lung systems and remarkable endurance capability as a result.

Martin T.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 03-09-2012
CoachBillG CoachBillG is offline
Coach
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 30
CoachBillG
Default

We can talk about CO2 levels, O2 levels, lactate acid, VO2 max, etc. but haven't mentioned skill development, familiarity, and proprioception in a particular activity that effects a person's respiration.

To give an example, which I have done; I can take a sub 36 minute 10K runner who has above average VO2 max, high anaerobic threshold, high lactate threshold, good power to weight ratio and in 2 minutes, crush them with kettlebell swings, having them almost pass out on the floor with a heart rate that is not even at the same rate as the last 800 meters of a 10K. Are they not fit? Don't have enough "endurance" or strength? NO. They are very fit! For RUNNING!

It was their nervous system that was shocked. In addition, their skill level of performing KB swings was low causing them to hold their breathe (panic) instead of breathing in a steady state (relaxation). If I was to have that runner do KB swings for a few weeks at a lesser intensity, giving them additional cues for them to focus on, within a few weeks they would be able to perform that 2 minute swing set multiple times.

If holding our breath was at all beneficial, we should be doing it all the time when we are walking and running (since we are land creatures and more comfortable on solid surfaces). One elite runner once said to me about running at high intensity, "if I could breathe in through my ears, I would". :-)
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 03-09-2012
CoachToby CoachToby is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 119
CoachToby
Default

Breathing should be given specific attention as a stroke thought so the swimmer can develop a comfortable patten as close to "normal" as they can get. Holding your breath is a ridiculious suggestion - do runners and cyclists advocate holding breath?! Google the word "hypoxia" and you will discover that this is generally a bad thing. So unless you're planning a career as a pearl diver, keep breathing.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 03-10-2012
tab tab is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 171
tab
Default

Pearl divers.... here the pearl is completing the task. 140 meters, doing breast stroke on one breath.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrXQbucZUDA
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 03-10-2012
CoachDave's Avatar
CoachDave CoachDave is offline
Coach
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 249
CoachDave
Default Another reason for holding your breath

I'm not sure where to start, but I wanted to point out a few areas that have probably not gotten the attention they needed.
1- how much breath is in the body is more important to some athletes than others. Pre-channel training, if I wanted to get a breath in skating, it was not an easy exercise. I could do it with a steady, strong kick, but simply rolling while doing a light kick gave me a nice view of the surface from an inch below. At one point, I was a true sinker (with a held breath, I sank), so in skating, my kick and pre-roll buoyancy determined my success. I see this in many triathletes and runners, especially in slower-moving drills. After packing on some pounds that simply won't leave, I don't have any problem getting a balanced roll while I'm kicking lightly, and sometimes even when I stop the kick entirely. Your momentum and buoyancy have an effect on how easily you can balance without various levels of alarm or panic sneaking in. It's a reality that conflicts with the simplicity we wish was there in coaching, but it's a reality nevertheless.

2- Would I coach a novice to strong sprinter to hold their breath in the 50? Absolutely. Over and over again, this is proved to be the best approach for a best time on the day of the event. But I do NOT coach my best swimmers to do this. The difference is not hypoxic training or buoyancy. It's the ability, through regular attention to their balance and form at a higher rate and intensity level, to breathe without significant drag increases. Why do I coach newer swimmers to not breathe off the turn? Because it's their worst moment of balance when they're rising up but the urge to breath moves them into a diagonal position. Sprinters nowadays breathe a lot more than they did 15 years ago, and slowly the approach has changed from:
"Don't breathe because you slow down when you breathe" to
"Fix your breath so that you don't slow down when you breathe."

In all the steps in between, coaches need to realize that often the level of breath holding that is being encouraged can also be the cause of bad form in sprinting. If you hold to every ten but beyond seven, you're in a panicked, mad rush to get to ten and breathe, it's definitely the wrong habit for you.

It all comes back to the basics once again. Breathing strategy should be focused on maintaining form while breathing in a way that doesn't trigger panic or extra resistance. Only with a mind that is focused and supplied can we make the stroke improvements and apply other race strategies in the best way possible.
__________________
Dave Cameron
Total Immersion Master Coach
Head Coach- Minneapolis YWCA Otters and Masters and MN Tri Masters
www.ywcampls.org/ti
www.ywcampls.org/otters
www.distancedave.com
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 03-11-2012
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
Coach
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,453
CoachSuzanne
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachDave View Post
I'm not sure where to start, but I wanted to point out a few areas that have probably not gotten the attention they needed.
1- how much breath is in the body is more important to some athletes than others. Pre-channel training, if I wanted to get a breath in skating, it was not an easy exercise. I could do it with a steady, strong kick, but simply rolling while doing a light kick gave me a nice view of the surface from an inch below. At one point, I was a true sinker (with a held breath, I sank), so in skating, my kick and pre-roll buoyancy determined my success. I see this in many triathletes and runners, especially in slower-moving drills. After packing on some pounds that simply won't leave, I don't have any problem getting a balanced roll while I'm kicking lightly, and sometimes even when I stop the kick entirely. Your momentum and buoyancy have an effect on how easily you can balance without various levels of alarm or panic sneaking in. It's a reality that conflicts with the simplicity we wish was there in coaching, but it's a reality nevertheless.

2- Would I coach a novice to strong sprinter to hold their breath in the 50? Absolutely. Over and over again, this is proved to be the best approach for a best time on the day of the event. But I do NOT coach my best swimmers to do this. The difference is not hypoxic training or buoyancy. It's the ability, through regular attention to their balance and form at a higher rate and intensity level, to breathe without significant drag increases. Why do I coach newer swimmers to not breathe off the turn? Because it's their worst moment of balance when they're rising up but the urge to breath moves them into a diagonal position. Sprinters nowadays breathe a lot more than they did 15 years ago, and slowly the approach has changed from:
"Don't breathe because you slow down when you breathe" to
"Fix your breath so that you don't slow down when you breathe."

In all the steps in between, coaches need to realize that often the level of breath holding that is being encouraged can also be the cause of bad form in sprinting. If you hold to every ten but beyond seven, you're in a panicked, mad rush to get to ten and breathe, it's definitely the wrong habit for you.

It all comes back to the basics once again. Breathing strategy should be focused on maintaining form while breathing in a way that doesn't trigger panic or extra resistance. Only with a mind that is focused and supplied can we make the stroke improvements and apply other race strategies in the best way possible.
DAve, please provide this wisdom on your blog as well! great description, and really...it's just the relevant stuff.
__________________
Suzanne Atkinson, MD
Level 3 USAT Coach
USA Paralympic Triathlon Coach
Coach of 5 time USA Triathlon Triathlete of the Year, Kirsten Sass
Steel City Endurance, LTD
Fresh Freestyle

Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 03-13-2012
terry terry is offline
Head Coach
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,305
terry has disabled reputation
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachDave View Post
Would I coach a novice to strong sprinter to hold their breath in the 50? Absolutely. Over and over again, this is proved to be the best approach for a best time on the day of the event.
Just to point out the radical difference between the 50 and 100 Free. When I coached the sprinters at West Point 1996-99 I coached my swimmers to breathe 1 to 2 times max during the 50. I coached them to breathe EVERY CYCLE in the 100. (Stipulating it was okay to skip a few breaths on the closing stretch if they felt it would help.)

The difference? The 50 is unequivocally a sprint. And the 100 is unequivocally a paced swim.

We had great results in both.
__________________
Terry Laughlin
Head Coach & Chief Executive Optimist

May your laps be as happy as mine.

My TI Story
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 03-13-2012
CoachDave's Avatar
CoachDave CoachDave is offline
Coach
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 249
CoachDave
Default Absolutely

That's right. If anything, we've coached a planned breathing pattern for the 100, and checked whether the swimmer holds form better with patterns of 2,3, or 4. It's a completely different race.
And for those who are still pushing the breathing as a regular training practice...
http://jap.physiology.org/content/94/2/733.full
__________________
Dave Cameron
Total Immersion Master Coach
Head Coach- Minneapolis YWCA Otters and Masters and MN Tri Masters
www.ywcampls.org/ti
www.ywcampls.org/otters
www.distancedave.com
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are Off
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 01:08 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.