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  #1  
Old 07-24-2011
TomBrooklyn TomBrooklyn is offline
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Default How Many Leg Kicks Per Arm Stroke?

How many leg kicks should be made per arm stroke?

I saw on the Freestyle DVD that the main purpose of kicks is to rotate the body, so is it one kick per stroke?
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Old 07-24-2011
Richardsk Richardsk is offline
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The two main forms are the two-beat kick and the six-beat kick. In the two-beat kick the foot on one side kicks down as the hand on the other side enters the water. This kick would be the first beat of the six-beat kick as well. In the six-beat kick the beats alternate so there are three beats to each arm stroke. The rhythm is six-eight time in musical terms.

In the more traditional approach they usually give you a kick board and send you off kicking furiously and then gradually add the arm stroke. This seems to work well for little kids but people who learn late in life often have inflexible ankles and don't get much propulsion from the kick. Some even move backwards, which is really discouraging.

The TI method works better for mature learners, and I gather works well for kids, too.

There is, I think, no need to consider other forms of kicking, such as the two-beat crossover, four-beat, eight beat or ten-beat kick.
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  #3  
Old 07-25-2011
TIJoe TIJoe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richardsk View Post
The two main forms are the two-beat kick and the six-beat kick. In the two-beat kick the foot on one side kicks down as the hand on the other side enters the water. This kick would be the first beat of the six-beat kick as well. In the six-beat kick the beats alternate so there are three beats to each arm stroke. The rhythm is six-eight time in musical terms.
I learned the two beat kick by focusing on syncing kick with the opposite side hand entry. However, now it seems that there is a new TI theory that your kick should be after the other hand entry. The syncing thought is with the same side hand in the middle of the pulling. Would like to hear the thought from someone who has used both timing.
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Old 07-25-2011
borate borate is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TIJoe View Post
I learned the two beat kick by focusing on syncing kick with the opposite side hand entry. However, now it seems that there is a new TI theory that your kick should be after the other hand entry. The syncing thought is with the same side hand in the middle of the pulling.
The kick coincides with the same-side pull and helps propel the opposite side stretch to full extension - shortly after entry.

Timing varies a bit with how patient the lead hand is, stroke speed, and individual style.
In practice, strive for a smooth kinetic chain from toe to lead hand, with the kick initiating the body roll (torque).

Last edited by borate : 07-25-2011 at 04:46 AM.
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  #5  
Old 07-25-2011
Richardsk Richardsk is offline
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See this demo of the two-beat and six-beat by Terry's daughter Fiona:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xTE...layer_embedded
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  #6  
Old 07-25-2011
Lawrence Lawrence is offline
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Notice, however, that her spearing is so deep that she needs to turn her head 180 degrees to find air. I'm convinced TI is wrong about spearing angle. The important thing is to achieve a steep angle of entry, not a steep follow-through underwater.
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Old 07-25-2011
Richardsk Richardsk is offline
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Lawrence, I think the camera angle gives a false impression of how much Fiona turns her head. Her head does not look too deep to me. Her cap appears to be just breaking the surface of the water. It seems to me that the camera is below the swimmer, not on the same level.

You may be right that TI has it wrong about the spearing angle, but I am not competent to judge. I will leave it to to others to comment. My gut instinct, however, is that you are probably mistaken. It seems to me inherently improbable that a swimmer of Terry's experience and application should be wrong and a relative newcomer to swimming be right, although I concede that it is possible. Relative newcomers have often made important discoveries.

In sports like swimming you probably have to win an Olympic medal before anyone takes you seriously, and even then it is more likely to be your coach who gets the credit.
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  #8  
Old 07-26-2011
Ghul Ghul is offline
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I like Richard's description of the six beat kick as being 6-8 time - never
thought of it that way but it's quite right.

The six-beat kick is hard to sustain over a long distance, so distance swimmers tend to prefer a two-beat kick. For sprinting the extra propulsion gained from the former is more worthwhile.
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  #9  
Old 07-27-2011
Donal F Donal F is offline
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Of the Men's 1500m finalists from Athens: Dave Davies used the two-beat crossover. Larsen Jensen used a six-beat kick that seemed to me to be timed like the TI kick but with four extra beats while he was gliding. Grant Hackett, Yury Prilukov and the rest used the four-beat kick. I'll have to snag a video of the Shanghai 1500m and see what they're doing now.
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  #10  
Old 07-27-2011
Richardsk Richardsk is offline
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Lotte Friis in the women's 1500 has what may be a two-beat crossover ( or just a two-beat with a tiny extra movement in one leg) and I believe I spotted a four-beat in some of the underwater shots. Federica Pellegrini seems to use mainly a six-beat, occasionally leaving out some of the beats and ending up with probably a four-beat.

There's a lot of good underwater video in the film of the women's 1500.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHH3mNfdQPE
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