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  #11  
Old 12-17-2012
aquarius aquarius is offline
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aquarius
Default traction without pulling?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
creating traction.
What's the difference between "creating traction" and "pulling"?

In other words, isn't it more a question of not focusing on the pulling rather than not pulling? ("Stop pulling on the water" would translate as "Stop thinking about pulling on the water".)
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  #12  
Old 12-17-2012
Stevew46 Stevew46 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
Stop pulling on the water. That's what's making you go different directions. Learn to feel the thickness of the water on your palm as you extend your arm in skate position, palm facing back fingers tipped down a bit and arm 'draped'. Try doing either (or both) spear switch or swing switch. Go ahead and stroke the lead arm, but DO NOT "pull" on the water. When your brain thinks "pull" the movement your arm does is anti-good-swimming.

Instead, just think about anchoring your palm right where it is in the water, and allow your body to slide past as the opposite are becomes the spearing arm.

This is where people may mis-interpret TI and think taht we don't care about what happens under the water...but the fact is we do care, a LOT. and when people are going off course, frequently the cause is because people are trying too hard to PULL.
Thanks Suzanne, ill focus on this from now on, incidentally are their any other, more obvious causes? One thing I noticed whilst swimming with eyes closed was I think I'm over rotating (not sure how much of body/torso)
but think definitely shoulders and into a "stacked" position! I also realised the other day that when doing the drill where im on my side with arms by my side, on my left side im able to move forward but only from a stacked position, on my right I go nowhere, for some reason I physically seem unable to get the angle right doing the drill (my body/ muscles/ lower back just wont have it!) so wonder how this is affecting the whole stroke? The other thing I'm not sure about is if both of my arms are entering the water shoulder width apart ("wide tracks") would this also cause a directional problem? Thanks again,

Steve (uk)

Last edited by Stevew46 : 12-17-2012 at 08:40 AM. Reason: Usual!
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  #13  
Old 12-17-2012
andyinnorway andyinnorway is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
Stop pulling on the water. That's what's making you go different directions. Learn to feel the thickness of the water on your palm as you extend your arm in skate position, palm facing back fingers tipped down a bit and arm 'draped'. Try doing either (or both) spear switch or swing switch. Go ahead and stroke the lead arm, but DO NOT "pull" on the water. When your brain thinks "pull" the movement your arm does is anti-good-swimming.

Instead, just think about anchoring your palm right where it is in the water, and allow your body to slide past as the opposite are becomes the spearing arm.

This is where people may mis-interpret TI and think taht we don't care about what happens under the water...but the fact is we do care, a LOT. and when people are going off course, frequently the cause is because people are trying too hard to PULL.
Ah, you are teaching me something good here as that would make sense with my going off course when I try to swim faster.

Is the pull the only factor then, I thought it was because I either speared wider on one arm than the other or because my left arm was straighter during pull through, but you're saying pulling on the water is the problem, cool.
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  #14  
Old 12-17-2012
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Originally Posted by andyinnorway View Post
Ah, you are teaching me something good here as that would make sense with my going off course when I try to swim faster.

Is the pull the only factor then, I thought it was because I either speared wider on one arm than the other or because my left arm was straighter during pull through, but you're saying pulling on the water is the problem, cool.
Well focusing on what happens during the "pull" (which is a word I hate to use), will help tell you if the set up is making things go off course. IN other words, if you are spearing to wide or crossing over, the "pull" will start in a line parallel to the direction of travel, but the connection of your hand to your body will cause one or the other to get aligned in order to finish the motion, and this will create a force moving in a non-linear path, the net result is probably not straight ahead.

Tuning into what's happening at slow speeds gives you time to focus. I will drill at 1.6, even though it feels terribly slow to me, because at that tempo I am able to easily connect my recovery to the entry to the spear to the catch to the stroke, and be able to feel what part needs some correction. Usually it's my entry being too narrow that throws everything else off.

But until I tuned in to what the stroke should feel like under the water I was less able to feel the importance of a wider entry.
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Last edited by CoachSuzanne : 12-17-2012 at 03:47 PM.
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  #15  
Old 12-17-2012
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aquarius View Post
What's the difference between "creating traction" and "pulling"?

In other words, isn't it more a question of not focusing on the pulling rather than not pulling? ("Stop pulling on the water" would translate as "Stop thinking about pulling on the water".)
Yes I think?

The definition of "pull" is to draw something towards yourself. in swimming you're drawing water PAST your body. there's really no part of the stroke when you watch great swimmers that is a pure pulling action. It's always balanced by some tension/retraction across the upper back and rotation in the upper arm that creates the "shape" of the stroke which moves you forward past the place kept by the palm.

When you THINK pull, it activates muscles in a slightly different pattern that causes you to lose a lot of potential grip or surface area on the water. But it's so hard to pick up on your own because you still feel yourself "doing work". It's just that the work is less effective in moving you forward.

What moves you frward is actually drag force created by the palm, forearm and to some degree the upper arm. Imagine walking on ice with slipper soles. If there were no friction or traction on your soles it would take very little force to cause it to slip and your forward motion would be minimal (if you didn't fall).

But if you had a surface area twice as big and initiated the movement a little slower, then your forward movement is enabled by friction or drag...between your foot and the ice.

Same thing in swimming except the water is even slipperier, and the hand even smaller than your foot. Hand + forearm doubles your interaction with the water, but as soon as you think about "pulling" you both lose the extra surface area as well as overwhelm the force required to move forward.
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Suzanne Atkinson, MD
Level 3 USAT Coach
USA Paralympic Triathlon Coach
Coach of 5 time USA Triathlon Triathlete of the Year, Kirsten Sass
Steel City Endurance, LTD
Fresh Freestyle

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  #16  
Old 12-17-2012
terry terry is offline
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Closing one's eyes is one of the best ways to heighten your sensitivity to how the water responds to your movements. So here's a suggestion. Rather than focus on what you SHOULD feel, become more aware of what you DO feel.

Swim a lap and take note of what sensations you're most aware of. Then swim again with eyes closed and note what new, or heightened, sensation comes to your awareness. Repeat that several times. Swim a bit with eyes open, then again with eyes closed, to bring the difference in sensory awareness to a conscious level.

If it seems promising, pls share it here.
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  #17  
Old 12-17-2012
Stevew46 Stevew46 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevew46 View Post
Thanks Suzanne, ill focus on this from now on, incidentally are their any other, more obvious causes? One thing I noticed whilst swimming with eyes closed was I think I'm over rotating (not sure how much of body/torso)
but think definitely shoulders and into a "stacked" position! I also realised the other day that when doing the drill where im on my side with arms by my side, on my left side im able to move forward but only from a stacked position, on my right I go nowhere, for some reason I physically seem unable to get the angle right doing the drill (my body/ muscles/ lower back just wont have it!) so wonder how this is affecting the whole stroke? The other thing I'm not sure about is if both of my arms are entering the water shoulder width apart ("wide tracks") would this also cause a directional problem? Thanks again,

Steve (uk)

Well I don't think it's down to "pulling too hard" swam tonight and realised I'm hardly pulling at all, which came as a bit of a shock! In fact since starting to learn TI crawl, approx 15 months ago, I don't really get any arm or shoulder pain or even fatigue anymore, and I've been swimming 2 miles once or twice a week (realised recently this has been counter productive so, since injuring back recently, I've gone back to basics and am going to start back at beginning -when I work out where that actually is) not sure I'm actually "anchoring" very we'll though and could really use some help understanding this!!!

Last edited by Stevew46 : 12-17-2012 at 10:34 PM. Reason: Spelling
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  #18  
Old 12-17-2012
Stevew46 Stevew46 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by terry View Post
Closing one's eyes is one of the best ways to heighten your sensitivity to how the water responds to your movements. So here's a suggestion. Rather than focus on what you SHOULD feel, become more aware of what you DO feel.

Swim a lap and take note of what sensations you're most aware of. Then swim again with eyes closed and note what new, or heightened, sensation comes to your awareness. Repeat that several times. Swim a bit with eyes open, then again with eyes closed, to bring the difference in sensory awareness to a conscious level.

If it seems promising, pls share it here.
Having realised I wasn't very good at this it suddenly dawned on me that swimming with my eyes closed might just help me to work out some of my problems, one things for sure, I instantly felt my senses were heightened, massively! To be honest it felt they were being overloaded and I found it hard to dissect all the feedback I was getting! However It's very early days and I'm sure it will eventually help me to improve! Thanks Terry and Ill definitely post any developments here.

Steve (uk)
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  #19  
Old 01-01-2013
fire50 fire50 is offline
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LOL! Once I try to did this job but i forget my direction, in those days actually i was beginner so I slipped toward where it was 8" ....eventually you can judge what happened. :)

gold coast surfboard rent

Last edited by fire50 : 01-05-2013 at 11:27 AM.
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