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  #11  
Old 01-18-2016
jenson1a jenson1a is offline
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Andy (or anyone0

Just out of curiosity where would you find a vasa trainer? YMCA or what?

Sherry
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  #12  
Old 01-18-2016
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WFEGb View Post
Hello,

I've uploaded a shortened video where I tried to pick the strokes where this problem is best visible. (Some/many others too, but this one moves me most currently...)
Werner
Hi Werner,

I think the 'root' issue is much more simple as Coach Bob notes and I think Andy identified. The instability and sinking is caused from over-rotation, lead arm is too deep as a consequence. Your over rotation is very atypical in that your recovery remains wide and relaxed. Typically over rotation is triggered with recovery elbow winging over the torso, this is not your case. See frames at 0:50, body (torso) rotated 90 degrees! You have incredible range of motion in your neck!! But that's why your lead arm is so low, compensating for over-rotation (and triggering a double kick on each stroke for stability).

#1 focus - swim flat as a pancake. This will feel very awkward and will seem like no rotation proprioception-wise, but will end up being the right amount. This will stabilize your vessel and keep you from riding low, the double kick will probably go away as a result too.

Good luck!

Stuart
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  #13  
Old 01-18-2016
sclim sclim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal View Post
Hi Werner,

I think the 'root' issue is much more simple as Coach Bob notes and I think Andy identified. The instability and sinking is caused from over-rotation, lead arm is too deep as a consequence. Your over rotation is very atypical in that your recovery remains wide and relaxed. Typically over rotation is triggered with recovery elbow winging over the torso, this is not your case. See frames at 0:50, body (torso) rotated 90 degrees! You have incredible range of motion in your neck!! But that's why your lead arm is so low, compensating for over-rotation (and triggering a double kick on each stroke for stability).

#1 focus - swim flat as a pancake. This will feel very awkward and will seem like no rotation proprioception-wise, but will end up being the right amount. This will stabilize your vessel and keep you from riding low, the double kick will probably go away as a result too.

Good luck!

Stuart
Stuart: don't want to hijack this thread, but I want to pick up on a point that has troubled me for a long time. I have a double kick, but only on one side. I have tried everything I can within my will-power to suppress it but it always sneaks back. I have only just figured out that it is maybe not just a bad habit, but a symptom of bad balance, because it also happens on the rotational side that I have all kinds of problems -- breathing consistency, confidence and consistency in catch initiation etc. So I figure that I need to work primarily on balance and rotational control independent of my kick. But I can't work out the mechanics of why the poor balance triggers the need to double kick (in my case a left foot pre-kick when all I really should be doing is a regular right foot kick).

Your comment here suggest that I may be right. So, is the need for a double kick always symptomatic of a difficulty with rotational control and balance?
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  #14  
Old 01-19-2016
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Hi Sclim,

Generally yes. When body senses being out of balance, it will seek (trigger) the arms and legs first for stability - that's just primal human.

In Werner's case, the double kick is the body seeking stability from over-rotation. When shoulders are stacked (one above the other), the body is unstable - similar to walking a tightrope. It seems Werner's over-rotation is caused from rotating more to breathe and is now imprinted on both breathing and non breathing strokes.

You may have the same issue with breathing, rotating too much to find to air, and at the same time sinking due over-rotation. It is counter-intuitive to rotate less and keep head low to get air, but that's how to create a seamless breath without interrupting stroke and balance.

Stuart
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  #15  
Old 01-19-2016
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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Hello all,

very thankful to all who took time to have a look and to answer! I'm a little late, because I really wanted a to have a pooltime before...

First I hesitated to put the video to youTube because the environment I have to take it is a bit problematic. It's the 12m long 0.9m deep gym-pool and till now nobody forbid me taking a video as long as nobody else is there, what's rarely the case. (The first excuse to myself...) So start has to be without push off and after a stroke of acceleration and three to get fluent I've to care for the pools edge in the next two/three. (second excuse to myself...) So there I've to swim very slow strokes to get them constant (third excuse to myself...)

But to encourage all others who might hesitate too. Getting some hints really is a great help for things I'd never seen when looking at my own videos (and the self-excuse is immediately there. You'll find some more of them in my following answers...) and it's really an eye opener against the own long-time-blinkers...

Thanks again, individual answers are following...
Best regards,
Werner
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  #16  
Old 01-19-2016
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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Hello Zenturtle,

Quote:
Main impression is not bad, but damn you are also riding so low in the water.
Dont know how you all breathe so low without disturbing the stroke, and it seems there all goes wrong in the end of the clip in the underwater sideshot.
Shooting up for air at every stroke and sinking down again.
Whole stroke is spiraling downward.
Well, I must recycle the old TI critic again.
First: We know each other so good, you know my videos and posts never will be a critique to TI. So everything you should take as my individual faults.

Yes the low riding is/was the main problem. Peculiarly it hit me so late, seems I'm too complacent. Yes there has to happen any openly bad things to get some air. Not sure what amount the short pool causes the downward spiral you noticed. It can't happen when swimming some laps. Otherwise they'd find me down on the 4.6m ground...

Quote:
Slow strokerate, dense guy, low powerinput, slow 2BK, grinding almost to a halt between strokes and sinking.
Does look hard and not much fun to me.
So do I have another solution then? First reaction for me is that it all could be lighter and quicker, but could that be possible with the same power input?
Oh no, I wouldn't excuse my mistakes... But :-) Although I didn't measure the SR in demonstration it will be around 1.8+s. In laps I'm around 1.2s-1.6s That's not what you'll call fluent SR, but that's my and it's a little faster. In my case I'd put me more as fat guy than as dense one. (Mouth above surface when inhaled and vertical..) As I try a steady 2BK it will be as slow as my SR... Grinding-stall-halt yes that's a problem. It's not so clear on the laps but I've to admit it's a part to work on.

Lighter and quicker. Quicker should be with faster SRs but how to get it lighter. Oh I'd like to find it lighter than getting O2 with mouth below surface... Hmmm... Same power Input? No, more power input needed when swimming with faster SR. But at the Moment down to 1.34s it pays off because some other problems are not as prominent then.

Quote:
Anyway, there is something wrong with your front to rear connection.
There is an awfull lot of twist and some timelag between kick and upperbody action. You are lloosing power there, but i have to look at it a lot to get an idea what you are actually doing.
Your eagle eye... That's exactly where I worked in the last months. Loglike swimming. Has to be ingrained a lot more, because it's obvious it gets lost when focusing in other points...

Quote:
Try to get that recovering arm over faster and let it drop in the water at the front where it cant push you down anymore.
This seems to become my new sticking point. Finding a new path for arm-hand from recovery to spear without creating additional drag.

Quote:
..........Make the pulling and kicking smooth and long, not hard and short. This disturbs your line and waists energy.
Arm sometimes collapses down on non breathing side to lift the head.
When I've worked on loglike there seems a felt contradiction between long and stiffened and long and smooth. This has to be solved... after breathe...

Quote:
I think you can make breathing easier by having your extended arm pointing straight ahead more when you take a breath to stabilise your bodyline.
When you work toward catch a bit in this position you are also pushing some water down, but only a little, and have a full anchor waiting instead of jerking it down in a hurry and waisting your anchor too.
Keeping that anchor wide will also make lif easier.
Hope I integrated some of these hints together with the other hints... Working with other kick patterns I'd like to conserve to later time, because the 2BK actually takes enough of my attention. Wan't confuse myself too much... Same for your hints with one fluke and buoy (simply I don't own now...)

Thank you very much for your effort in detailed help!

Best regards,
Werner
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  #17  
Old 01-19-2016
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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Hello Andy,

Quote:
I think you have confused roll with reach.
As Stuart wrote. Seems you really hit one of the nail's heads. I had to try it before answering... At least for this first time I found very reduced bopping and seemed to feel crowning surface for a longer time... And it drives me to inhale earlier. The spear path has to get under construction and doesn't feel good actually. And from spear to catch becomes more difficult and more in front. But what you do not do anything for a good breath :-)

Well, it was the first time with this FPs, swam 1600m in 100s and 200s without TT. Astonished that most of them lay between 1:50s-1:55s. That's good for me, but the SPL went to 41-43, while I'd like to hold them below 40... But it seems to be the right path!

Thank you and with best regards,
Werner
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  #18  
Old 01-19-2016
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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Hello Bob,

Quote:
It appears to me that you may be spearing a bit too low, causing your body to sink, and that you are compensating by arching your spine and legs. When you start to roll toward your side, your body seems to straighten again and rises so that you are much closer to the surface. The result is that you keep bobbing up and down, and this forces you to struggle to get close enough to the surface to breathe.
Since I can not help my defense :-) Spearing is at least one of the main problems. Trying it today, sometimes my parallel(?) spear felt as spearing direct to pool's ceiling... And if I had not started this thread I'd misinterpreted my counted SPLs as putting brakes on caused by spearing upward...

Thank you very much. Best regards,
Werner
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  #19  
Old 01-19-2016
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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Hello Stuart,

Quote:
I think the 'root' issue is much more simple as Coach Bob notes and I think Andy identified....

#1 focus - swim flat as a pancake. This will feel very awkward and will seem like no rotation proprioception-wise, but will end up being the right amount. This will stabilize your vessel and keep you from riding low, the double kick will probably go away as a result too.
Yes, seems you're very right. My two FPs for today and next time: Spearing parallel and nearly-no-rotation. Posted first results in my answer to Andy. It does feel awkward. Sometimes I realized flat swimming seduces to head lifting and spearing parallel and straight triggers the old extended (over)rotation...

Tensed (in brain) what will happen next time...

Thank you and best regards,
Werner
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  #20  
Old 01-19-2016
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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Hello Sclim,

Quote:
Stuart: don't want to hijack this thread, but I want to pick up on a point that has troubled me for a long time...
:-) Hijacked so many threads since in the forum, glad to give one back... Permission granted!

Best regards,
Werner

PS: Think your sculling thread will be very helpful for me with my new spear and going to catch. Thanks for this one too...
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