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  #1  
Old 07-17-2015
johynr]]] johynr]]] is offline
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Default Arm recovery I

Arm recovery is something I always work on (hard to believe from the videos below I know) but following the advice of Coach Stuart and I now going to focus on this until I can see some very real improvements.

So here we go ... I took these short clips last weekend showing front and side views.

https://youtu.be/TrjCFLgyObc

https://youtu.be/UCeINEcXRXk

It seems to me that both arms have different issues. Beside the head snaking around!

Left arm: The arm is not elbow led, the hand comes forwards to early: the hand sweeps forward too high: the arm should swing further away from the body: it sometimes seems to speed up.

Right arm: With the right the hand enters too late, it should enter nearer to the head.

As usual thanks in advance for comments and suggestions.
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  #2  
Old 07-17-2015
Talvi Talvi is offline
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IMvHO
1. your hands exit too early, at the moment almost at your waist. Try to make the uw stroke end with your arm fully extended palm up. The topedo drill (SG but with arms glued to your side) might help get the feel of the end point.
2. think of your head not as snaking but of your body snaking. Promote your head to be the leader of the band and demote your arms to flanking forces to the main even ie to your body moving in a dead straight line ahead through the water. Ithink this might help correct the crossing-over/too close etc issue too.

Probably b*x but fwiw

p.s
You're looking good! What's your pace at this tempo? How do you find working in an endless pool?
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A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
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"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov
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  #3  
Old 07-17-2015
johynr]]] johynr]]] is offline
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Hi Talvi,

I set the water to a relatively slow speed - 1.45 / 100m I think,

The endless pool takes a bit of getting used to. It's much less forgiving than a normal pool which is one of the reasons I like it. If you get out of balance it really lets you know. You can also really feel the effects of trying different things out.

As you may know the pool also has a number of mirrors in it which really are very useful.
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Old 07-17-2015
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johynr]]] View Post
Hi Talvi,

I set the water to a relatively slow speed - 1.45 / 100m I think,

The endless pool takes a bit of getting used to. It's much less forgiving than a normal pool which is one of the reasons I like it. If you get out of balance it really lets you know. You can also really feel the effects of trying different things out.

As you may know the pool also has a number of mirrors in it which really are very useful.
Relatively SLOW!?!! :D

Sound's like a great tool. I've never swum in one and don't know where there might be one where I live, maybe Helsinki, but that's a few hundred miles south of here.

I'd be interested to hear what you thought of my comments on your vids as these are things I am applying to my own swimming. You're way ahead of me in your technique, which looks wonderfully lazy and yet produces a very respectable pace in my books anyway.
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A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
~ George Kelly

"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov
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  #5  
Old 07-17-2015
johynr]]] johynr]]] is offline
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Maybe I got the units wrong. I'll check next time I go.

Edited to add - thinking about it I must have the units wrong as 1.45/100m is very very quick for me.

Regarding your comments.

1. "your hands exit too early, at the moment almost at your waist. Try to make the uw stroke end with your arm fully extended palm up. The topedo drill (SG but with arms glued to your side) might help get the feel of the end point."

I thought the arms were meant to exit early as most propulsion is generated at the start of the stroke?


2. "think of your head not as snaking but of your body snaking. Promote your head to be the leader of the band and demote your arms to flanking forces to the main even ie to your body moving in a dead straight line ahead through the water. Ithink this might help correct the crossing-over/too close etc issue too."

I think this is a good point and I will incorporate this as a focal point.

Last edited by johynr]]] : 07-17-2015 at 11:16 AM.
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  #6  
Old 07-17-2015
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johynr]]] View Post
...I thought the arms were meant to exit early as most propulsion is generated at the start of the stroke...
Thanks johynr

I'd really like to hear others' thoughts on this.

I've attached a Shinji shot. It's taken from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BJCxP6RcjE but only show the hand just befor exit. Watch the video from 0:59 - 1:00. It's slo-mo and you can see in the middle of that section (if you are fast with the mouse button!) jusst how far his arm extends before then pulling forward and drawing his hand out of the water. My impression is that your hand exit is maybe 8-10" in front of his, but watching it again that your furthest hand position might be even more forward of his than this.

My own understanding of the "get out early" advice is not to sweat the last part of the stroke rather thaan to reduce it. I feel it as extending the impulse given by the first part of the uw stroke, similar to when pushing a car: the first heave gets it going and then a smaller amount of energy keeps it moving. Or put another way that it's got the same function the follow-through in e.g a racket sport. If you pull out early you're already deccelerating before the ball has left the racket.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Timing-R10.jpg (16.9 KB, 19 views)
__________________
A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
~ George Kelly

"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov
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  #7  
Old 07-27-2015
johynr]]] johynr]]] is offline
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Hi Talvi,

I think you are spot on with that observation about my early hand exit. I have closely studied videos of Terry and I will try and push further back and end with my arm fully extended palm up.

Thank you.

John
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  #8  
Old 07-27-2015
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johynr]]] View Post
Hi Talvi,

I think you are spot on with that observation about my early hand exit. I have closely studied videos of Terry and I will try and push further back and end with my arm fully extended palm up.

Thank you.

John
Hi John, hope it helps. But I suggest you don't try to "push back", rather think of more fully extending - one arm fully forward the other fully back. If you think of pushing back perhaps you might introduce other problems, when imo all that's wanted is a "fuller" stroke, if you see what I mean.

fwiw I have been trying the palm-up-exit and it caused a problem as if the hand is firm and lifted up there is a resultant downward rotational force which was unhelpful. IMO the palm up should come from the hand being relaxed at the end of the stroke from its fingers down position, like a racquet follow through, and the elbow then pulling it forward and out of the water.
__________________
A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
~ George Kelly

"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov
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  #9  
Old 07-28-2015
Tom Pamperin Tom Pamperin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talvi View Post
fwiw I have been trying the palm-up-exit and it caused a problem as if the hand is firm and lifted up there is a resultant downward rotational force which was unhelpful. IMO the palm up should come from the hand being relaxed at the end of the stroke from its fingers down position, like a racquet follow through, and the elbow then pulling it forward and out of the water.
Talvi,

I agree completely. The last thing you want is a forceful upward motion of the hand with the palm facing up--not only wasted energy, but would force the body down. So, the palm faces up, but the elbow moves FORWARD as you say. In fact, it may be that the palm is/should be facing back right up until the moment it begins to be pulled forward by the elbow. I'll pay attention to that next time I swim.

Tom
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  #10  
Old 07-28-2015
johynr]]] johynr]]] is offline
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interestingly I have just been watching/reading about 'water rebound' in Shinyi's Freestyle toolbox. Section 2-13 finish and recovery - page - 33

Is anybody familiar with this?
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