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  #11  
Old 01-06-2014
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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Hello Suzanne,

Quote:
...Sure seems like he could have shortened his learnign curve....
For what indicators can we look to shorten our learning curves, or even to cut (for some time) because goal is reached at least in "objective" satisfying parts? How to decide the new (foreign) feeling is right or not right enough?

Well, after I've read Mat Hudson's last blog http://smoothstrokes.wordpress.com/2...over-thinking/ I'm once more sure he wrote it just for me. But when alone without a coach l'm always insecure how to get this special inside body-mind-thinking...

Hello Charles,

Quote:
...8 Months I believe, without removing it. His version of mindful swimming. I followed his works with great interest. To me the interesting thing isn't the drill he picked, as much as the total denial of the "little bit of this, little bit of that" sort of approach. Given his age and everything (62 at the time he did the experiment), given his goals etc, I believe that he picked an excellent path to fast progress.
...
Being same aged as Cottmiler I admire him very much. (Would have done in earlier years too...) I'd even never had the idea to do a single drill for such a long time. But maybe this decision has to be taken at start (as C. did) and not at time looking back. Varying focus was one thing TI turned my boring "necessary" struggle into interesting and amazing felt strokes.

Hello Mike,

Quote:
For me, the point is an enhanced kinesthetic perception—AFTER REMOVING the hip blades...
Think, now I understand. How long does this experience hold? Are you getting the right movement imprinted till next time? And what is an adequat TI-drill avoiding the paddles?

Hello Sherry,

Quote:
...He then proceeded to bring the arm out to the forehead and then sweep back to the pocket position. sort of a prelim to the swing skate drill. I tried this and it was fairly easy. I could also feel the water not only on the front of my arm, but behind it also. Need to do more of this....
So you've gotten it with help of little variation drills? Maybe it's a good idea working with variated drills to get nearer to our "most difficult" one.

Best regards,
Werner
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  #12  
Old 01-06-2014
Noonie Noonie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WFEGb View Post

@Noonie

Where would you see the cause? Impatience? (Think not really...) Head alignment when breathing? Balance?
I worked on this the other day while swimming at hotel pool. First, don't you find you can really take it easy on drills at shorter, less crowded hotel pool. I seem to glide across the surface of hotel pools as I'm patient just floating around and doing various drills. Anyway, I practiced swimming with my right arm left out front and stroking with only my left. When I did it well it helped the following whole strokes.
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  #13  
Old 01-08-2014
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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Hello Noonie,

Quote:
...Anyway, I practiced swimming with my right arm left out front and stroking with only my left. When I did it well it helped the following whole strokes....
Focus on the weak side seems a good idea to overcome difficulties there. I tried that to get my breathing strokes more symmetrical. But a friend of mine, working as Alexander Technique teacher, said one should never try to solve asymmetric motions with asymmetry in the other direction. By myself I think it's sometimes necessary, just to feel the difference. And right motion more often to the weak side just helps to imprint it.

Would be interesting what coaches think about...

Best regards,
Werner
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  #14  
Old 01-15-2014
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WFEGb View Post
Hello Noonie,

Focus on the weak side seems a good idea to overcome difficulties there. I tried that to get my breathing strokes more symmetrical. But a friend of mine, working as Alexander Technique teacher, said one should never try to solve asymmetric motions with asymmetry in the other direction. By myself I think it's sometimes necessary, just to feel the difference. And right motion more often to the weak side just helps to imprint it.

Would be interesting what coaches think about...

Best regards,
Werner
Not a coach Werner, but I think I might disagree with your friend. Any unfamiliar i.e un-ingrained motion feels odd or even ridiculous. If you have tried to correct sitting, standing, walking you'll know what I mean. At first it feels like you're doing something absurdly comical then the new movement settles down and gradually achieves a balance. The initial sense of awkwardness is inevitable. Try folding your arms the other way around!

In my breathing etc I regularly practice both sides in a variety of ways, seeing what's different in the feel of the two and carrying lessons from one side to the other. If anything I find the benefit that comes from practising on my weaker side to be greater than those gained by practising on my strong side (in all aspects of the stroke).
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A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
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"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
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  #15  
Old 06-20-2014
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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WFEGb
Default The real secret...

Hello,

maybe it's of interest for someone.

Found a focus for my till now heaviest skill, a steady non rotating head when stroking: Start moving the speared arm going to stroke never before my head is back looking down. Any motion to catch position has to float without any forced movement.

Maybe this will bring other flaws into my stroke, but it is my current FP to get a steady head. Funny enough: There is no secret. Everyone (even I) know about patient lead hands. And sure I read anywhere from Terry: Start your stroke when your head is neutral and back...

But it took me 14 months to realize what ment. Well, it has not been the only thing to work on. Think it will take some further months to fix, because I now have always at least two FPs. I realize this FP nearly at once. Losing it a lap I have to pick up a stroke, no matter which second FP I'm working on or what SL actual is.

Best regards,
Werner

PS: The real secret here? There is no secret, you've only to realize what's open.

Last edited by WFEGb : 06-20-2014 at 01:45 PM. Reason: Addition
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  #16  
Old 06-20-2014
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WFEGb View Post
Hello,

maybe it's of interest for someone.

Found a focus for my till now heaviest skill, a steady non rotating head when stroking: Start moving the speared arm going to stroke never before my head is back looking down. Any motion to catch position has to float without any forced movement.

Maybe this will bring other flaws into my stroke, but it is my current FP to get a steady head. Funny enough: There is no secret. Everyone (even I) know about patient lead hands. And sure I read anywhere from Terry: Start your stroke when your head is neutral and back...

But it took me 14 months to realize what ment. Well, it has not been the only thing to work on. Think it will take some further months to fix, because I now have always at least two FPs. I realize this FP nearly at once. Losing it a lap I have to pick up a stroke, no matter which second FP I'm working on or what SL actual is.

Best regards,
Werner

PS: The real secret here? There is no secret, you've only to realize what's open.
How do you get this to fit with not having a pause at the hip after pulling?

I have sometimes focused on turning my head back down immediately after taking a breath instead of along with my recovering arm's movement. It does feel more balanced. Maybe the turn down is as the hand finishes the pull/exits, at the last stroke of the Bernaise?

I now see where you were coming from on the Foundations thread. It does seem like something to add to the Pencil. Thanks.
__________________
A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
~ George Kelly

"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov
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  #17  
Old 06-20-2014
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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WFEGb
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Hello Talvi,

Quote:
How do you get this to fit with not having a pause at the hip after pulling?
It's not an as smooth motion for now as I'd like, because "nodding" head back is not integrated very well yet. My feeling is, it's too fast related to my recovery arm. But my "knowledge" says it has to, for the catch should be in it's last phase, when the recovery hand enters the water becoming spear hand. Not aware of a pause at starting recovery but it may be worth a tighter look next pool time...

Thank very much and best regards,
Werner
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  #18  
Old 06-20-2014
Talvi Talvi is offline
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I went quickly to look for a video and found this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMF24_H_6vQ Have a look e.g at 0:44.

She seems more relaxed. Her head begins turning back down just before her fingertips touch the water/enter the mail-slot.

Here's another random clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UGSL...feature=relmfu Shows a hyper patient lead hand imho (too much at 0:19?) Her head turns in synch with her hand entry/spear.

Is that what you're aiming for?

Looking at this last clip I clearly see her head lift. It come up from the line it has when looking down, in order to take a breath. This is actually what I see in a lot in videos across a vast variety of swimmers, from olympians down, and yet everyone talks about NOT doing it. There are some seriously crossed wires in this I find, and I'd like to get to the bottom of it. Charles?
__________________
A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
~ George Kelly

"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov
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  #19  
Old 06-20-2014
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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WFEGb
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Hello Talvi,

can't have a look at your first video (closed for Germany :-(( )...

Second video shows exactly what I'm trying to avoid. She lifts her head while the speared arm and hand (surface parallel!!) pushes down to allow this lift. This will not have positiv effects on our legs or pencil-formed body (mine is more like a guinea pig)...

Last but not least I'm very sceptical transforming stroke characteristics of competing swimmers to my stroke directly. (My slow stroke is around 2:15min per 100m my fastest 1:35min). Charles sometimes mentioned, these guys'll be afraid drowning at my fastest pace. It definitely is a completely other point of view at swimming. Seems to me as putting the cart before the horse from behind.

So I'd say (for me): Never find any excuse for head-lifting, there is none!

Best regards,
Werner

Last edited by WFEGb : 06-20-2014 at 10:08 PM. Reason: correction
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  #20  
Old 06-21-2014
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Perhaps one of the most difficult drill remains to simply be able to close half of your mouth, thus allowing to lower the profile.

I read about a drill I think I vaguely remember, nod I think. I don't remember the exact definition of the drill.

But this year I worked on something with some newbies/intermediates. Simple.

You effectively breathe once every 4 strokes, but perform a breathing gesture once every 2. The other one you try to rotate your head/upper body exactly as you dream you could be, and try to place your mouth low profile but in a position that you could possibly think of being able to breathing in, but without breathing in.

I'm not sure if it's that's nod. If so I'll immediately start calling that this way.

It's an awesome drill to tell you the truth. Because you alternate between what you can do now, and what you dream of doing. And sometimes? Why not trying to inhale and see if it works. The mere idea that you may choke (since you're pushing your luck and you know that) will greatly help avoiding choking (better reflex).

Really, when I shoot lateral footage unilateral breathing over 50m as 2x25m. Usually, the good breathing side is the one being the most capable of Popeying the mouth. Often, on the wrong breathing side, the swimmer tries to breathe in with mouth wide open.
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