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  #1  
Old 10-01-2012
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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WFEGb
Default How to split my water time

Dear readers,

I'd like to get some hints for improvement within my reach.

61years old (hi Terry!). I swim mostly during the lunch break. Time in water 30-45min. 3-5 times per week. Because of work afterwards and my own convenience I don't like threshold swims very much.

In the last 18months I had more or less successful attempts with TI. Please be kind, I call it so. (From 100m in breathless 3min to last reached target 1600m in 31:40, but that has been a real limit... and in a 25m pool. That was provided for 2013 or later by myself...)

Any hints how to split my time to what focuses are very welcome.

Regards,
Werner
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  #2  
Old 10-01-2012
andyinnorway andyinnorway is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WFEGb View Post
Dear readers,

I'd like to get some hints for improvement within my reach.

61years old (hi Terry!). I swim mostly during the lunch break. Time in water 30-45min. 3-5 times per week. Because of work afterwards and my own convenience I don't like threshold swims very much.

In the last 18months I had more or less successful attempts with TI. Please be kind, I call it so. (From 100m in breathless 3min to last reached target 1600m in 31:40, but that has been a real limit... and in a 25m pool. That was provided for 2013 or later by myself...)

Any hints how to split my time to what focuses are very welcome.

Regards,
Werner
Werner, you and me have been going about the same time. Is your best mile time with even splits over the 64 lengths. That's a good thing to accomplish, even if the time is slightly slower. 1 TT setting, 1 SPL goal, 64 identical lengths (or break it down into 4x400 for starters)

I think once you get in the habit of total consistency then making small marginal improvements, e.g. one click on the TT can make chucking time off the clock more manageable.
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  #3  
Old 10-02-2012
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Ahhh, a simple question :)

Your 31.some, at which tempo?
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  #4  
Old 10-02-2012
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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Hi Andy and Charles,

thank you very much for your thoughts. Think you just hit one of my sore points:
My best 1600m were swum all laps continues in one turn. No singles stopped. But my SPL varied up and down from 16 up to 20 and between. Mostly half to one stroke more on one lap dependent on the breathing side. (Worse felt side a stroke less(!))
It's been swum without TT.

But when I swim intervals with TT (range from 1.38 to 1.20) my by own wrist watch stopped times for 200m seem to be nearly constant just below 4min. Varied by the SPLs. Would like to nail my SPL to 38 (in 50m pool) or 16 in 25m pool. But don't know the way to.

With TT set below 1.34 my hasty strokes start. (Assembled a TT seamless from 1.36 to 1.20 and back in 0.02 steps in 2min intervals, but I'm not fit enough because the relaxed state from the beginning wan't come back. So it becomes one of that not so beloved limit-swim times. This is Westy's idea. But think I have to swim some more months until it will fit for me...)

So, how to devide my short times for best improvement?

Thanks and best regards,
Werner

PS: Andy, you are in time, technique, endurance and deep of TI-thoughts "Far far away ... " even if we did start at the same time...
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  #5  
Old 10-02-2012
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WFEGb View Post
Hi Andy and Charles,

thank you very much for your thoughts. Think you just hit one of my sore points:
My best 1600m were swum all laps continues in one turn. No singles stopped. But my SPL varied up and down from 16 up to 20 and between. Mostly half to one stroke more on one lap dependent on the breathing side. (Worse felt side a stroke less(!))
It's been swum without TT.

But when I swim intervals with TT (range from 1.38 to 1.20) my by own wrist watch stopped times for 200m seem to be nearly constant just below 4min. Varied by the SPLs. Would like to nail my SPL to 38 (in 50m pool) or 16 in 25m pool. But don't know the way to.

With TT set below 1.34 my hasty strokes start. (Assembled a TT seamless from 1.36 to 1.20 and back in 0.02 steps in 2min intervals, but I'm not fit enough because the relaxed state from the beginning wan't come back. So it becomes one of that not so beloved limit-swim times. This is Westy's idea. But think I have to swim some more months until it will fit for me...)

So, how to devide my short times for best improvement?

Thanks and best regards,
Werner

PS: Andy, you are in time, technique, endurance and deep of TI-thoughts "Far far away ... " even if we did start at the same time...
Hmmm, I'm afraid I can't help you much.

We have the same target distance per stroke, but certainly not the name number of years of experience under the belt. I'm here partly to learn how TI method can apply to such a case. As clearly in my book, that target distance per stroke, if speed is among your interest, is a bit optimistic I find.

It's a bit as if I wanted to swim 12-13 in racing or time trial situation, I'd burn my rotators' cuff muscle out, loose my swim form and drop up to 17-18 for slower total TT time.

Not suggesting your approach is a) wrong or even b) unrealistic, but simply that I can't really help other than recommending that you perform a bunch of reps at a speed which allows to NOT loose your DPS, then perform a lot of reps at that speed (ie at that rate), then gradually increase the rate without loosing DPS.

The word gradually is the key word here. Pulling 16s/25 at 1.0 brings you to the other end quite fast. You have to make sure that your target DPS-Rate combination produces a time result that represents a realistic improvement compared to your actual performance.

You know, you have muscles in charge of moving you forward (lats, arm adductor, etc) and muscles in charge of maintaining proper swim form, best example being rotators' cuff muscles. I think I saw a post related to TI straight arm downsweep (think you guys call it a spear?) vs keeping upper arm very close to the surface at all time, ā la Hackett. Since there's a bit less strain on the rotators' cuff muscles, it should normally allow for more consistent distance per stroke. So you may need to look in this area as well. If you're putting too much strain on these little muscles, *and* working on tempo, then as soon as you loose DPS, you loose speed.

Here, this is 15 at little slower than 1.0. Comes up in 1:23 roughly, so add say, 7 seconds (since sometimes I'm going 14), that's still 1.5min

You have to condition for swimming 1:50, then 1:45, then 1:40, otherwise it's hard to keep the form

Last edited by CharlesCouturier : 10-02-2012 at 01:03 PM.
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  #6  
Old 10-02-2012
andyinnorway andyinnorway is offline
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Originally Posted by WFEGb View Post

With TT set below 1.34 my hasty strokes start.
Here is something for you to figure out. What is causing the 'bump' in the stroke cycle under TT1.34?

Put your TT around 1.26 or something moderately inside the hasty range.

If its a breathing or head lifting thing you can identify that by swimming 4 or 6 extra relaxed strokes on push off before breathing (or use a freestyle snorkel), if that feels.

Alternatively it could be over rotation to one side, which would make you have to 'kick start' the stroke to change your weight shift and that will give you a time lag.

I had to learn some ukelele chords for a workshop I was teaching a few weeks ago and the lead instructor told me to always think about the next chord rather than the one I was playing as I had already 'secured' the finger position for that one.

This is the same. As soon as you have speared on one side, focus on where you are heading rather than where you are, this can help with the over rotating.



Now for the maths of improving times.

29s a length would give you a 100m repeat time of 1.56 or a mile time of 30.56 so that might be a good place to start for your interval training.

If you set your TT on 1.32 then you have 22 beeps per length the make 29seconds. This is where you need to employ strict push off and turn strategy and at that tempo I would suggest 2 for the push off and 1 for the turn, leaving you 19 full strokes per length for the swimming bit.

You could try the 4x25 off 40s,3x50 off 1:20,2x75 off 2:00 and 1x100 set and concentrate on holding precise consistency. You should have time for two of these in your swim sessions.

You might also want to introduce an extra 100 at the end of each set swum without the TT but at the same SPL and SR to develop your internal pacing skills.
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  #7  
Old 10-02-2012
ian mac ian mac is offline
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ian mac
Default How badly do you want it?

WFEGb,
Andy's recommendation regarding "4321's" is a great place to start. However to get faster will require slightly more effort both in terms of time in pool and levels of intensity. At some point you will need do do threshold sets. As you improve your SPL and SR at shorter distances, you will need to maintain one or both while introducing longer intervals of 200/400/800 while maintaing lower SPL &/or faster SR.

Improvement always takes greater commitment. If I wanted to improve my financial wealth, I can reduce my spending, increase my income or a combination of both. To do this would mean either streamlining my expenses or working with more focus to increase earnings. Regardless, it would require me to spend more time to do so. Those who are successful at any endeavour must be prepared to increase their commitment from current levels to newer, more demanding ones.
Best of mindful, increased effort
ian mac
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  #8  
Old 10-02-2012
jenson1a jenson1a is offline
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Default Need Clarification

Quote:
Originally Posted by andyinnorway View Post
Here is something for you to figure out. What is causing the 'bump' in the stroke cycle under TT1.34?

Put your TT around 1.26 or something moderately inside the hasty range.

If its a breathing or head lifting thing you can identify that by swimming 4 or 6 extra relaxed strokes on push off before breathing (or use a freestyle snorkel), if that feels.

Alternatively it could be over rotation to one side, which would make you have to 'kick start' the stroke to change your weight shift and that will give you a time lag.

I had to learn some ukelele chords for a workshop I was teaching a few weeks ago and the lead instructor told me to always think about the next chord rather than the one I was playing as I had already 'secured' the finger position for that one.

This is the same. As soon as you have speared on one side, focus on where you are heading rather than where you are, this can help with the over rotating.



Now for the maths of improving times.

29s a length would give you a 100m repeat time of 1.56 or a mile time of 30.56 so that might be a good place to start for your interval training.

If you set your TT on 1.32 then you have 22 beeps per length the make 29seconds. This is where you need to employ strict push off and turn strategy and at that tempo I would suggest 2 for the push off and 1 for the turn, leaving you 19 full strokes per length for the swimming bit.

"You could try the 4x25 off 40s,3x50 off 1:20,2x75 off 2:00 and 1x100 set and concentrate on holding precise consistency." You should have time for two of these in your swim sessions.

You might also want to introduce an extra 100 at the end of each set swum without the TT but at the same SPL and SR to develop your internal pacing skills.
Hey Andy

You guys are way ahead of me, but I am not sure I understand the suggestion to improve time by 4x25 off 40s and why set TT at 1:20 for the 3x50 and then go way down to 2:00 for the 2x75? Is the 40s mean 40 seconds? Sorry for my ignorance but I have to ask

Sherry
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  #9  
Old 10-02-2012
andyinnorway andyinnorway is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jenson1a View Post
Hey Andy

You guys are way ahead of me, but I am not sure I understand the suggestion to improve time by 4x25 off 40s and why set TT at 1:20 for the 3x50 and then go way down to 2:00 for the 2x75? Is the 40s mean 40 seconds? Sorry for my ignorance but I have to ask

Sherry
Sherry
If you have to ask then I didn't explain it very well.

The TT in this example would stay on 1.30 at all times.

The other numbers are all times.

so 4x25m, starting every 40 seconds
3x50m, starting every 1 minute 20 seconds (double 40)
2x75m, starting every 2 minutes (3x40)
and 1x100m

I do wonder how the right way to write these sets is? distance, pace, repeat interval?, tt setting, SPL target?

It gets complicated or is there a standard terminology?
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  #10  
Old 10-02-2012
ian mac ian mac is offline
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ian mac
Default Standard terminology

Andy, Jenson et al:

Set 1. no TT, 4 x 25 on 40sec interval/3 x 50 on 1:20/2 x 75 on 2:00/1 x 100 - maintain SPL of 29

Set 2. TT@ 1.30, 4 x 25 on 40sec interval/3 x 50 on 1:20/2 x 75 on 2:00/1 x 100 - maintain SPL of 29

ian mac
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