Total Immersion Forums  

Go Back   Total Immersion Forums > Freestyle
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 07-11-2017
Rajan Rajan is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 211
Rajan
Default Breathing

Hi!

Could somebody guide me on this please.

Now a days, I am practicing to move forward with my downward kick without pushing the water. I am feeling problem to synchronise my breathing with my downward kick.

I have been advised by few coaches here to rotate the head to breathe following shoulders. . But I want someone to please tell me whether the following description is right or wrong in terms of timing of breathing with respect to downward kick. This is what I am practicing.

I remain in skate position until my hand/wrist completely enters the water. Now before this there is no roll. The moment my wrist is completely in water, I kick downward, keeping my leading hand in catch position. Downward kick moves the leading arm's shoulder out and my head follows the shoulder to breathe. .

Keeping the above description in mind, my questions is whether my mouth follows the shoulder to breathe only after downward kick. Because only after downward kick, leading arm shoulder moves out and we have to follow the shoulder to breathe.

Regards

Rajan
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 07-11-2017
CoachBobM CoachBobM is offline
Coach
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 647
CoachBobM
Default

You shouldn't need to think about anything special with regard to the timing of your kick when you're breathing. Your core body should always be rotating about the axis of your spine as you're stroking, whether it's a breathing stroke or not, and your kick should be counterbalancing that core body rotation.

The only difference between breathing and non-breathing strokes is that on non-breathing strokes, your nose should keep pointing down as your core body rotates, while on breathing strokes, your head should rotate with your body so that your core body rotation brings your mouth to the air (you may have to use a "Popeye mouth" and/or turn your head a bit further than your body in order to reach the air).


Bob
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 07-11-2017
Rajan Rajan is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 211
Rajan
Default

Thanks for your post Coach Bob.

But I am sorry to say that I did not feel like my problem being solved.

You told me that breathing has nothing to do with downward kick. Do TI swimmers start rotating to breathe after downward kick or before downward kick ?




Regards

Rajan

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachBobM View Post
You shouldn't need to think about anything special with regard to the timing of your kick when you're breathing. Your core body should always be rotating about the axis of your spine as you're stroking, whether it's a breathing stroke or not, and your kick should be counterbalancing that core body rotation.

The only difference between breathing and non-breathing strokes is that on non-breathing strokes, your nose should keep pointing down as your core body rotates, while on breathing strokes, your head should rotate with your body so that your core body rotation brings your mouth to the air (you may have to use a "Popeye mouth" and/or turn your head a bit further than your body in order to reach the air).


Bob
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 07-11-2017
borate borate is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 533
borate
Default

Consider not timing breathing to kick. Breath just as the recovering arm leaves the water, as that side of the body rotates toward the surface.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 07-12-2017
ti97
 
Posts: n/a
Default

imagine that you are holding an apple between your cheek and your collarbone as you roll to get air...take a gulp and turn your face back into the water looking at the bottom of the lane
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 07-12-2017
daveblt daveblt is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 820
daveblt
Default

You always want to think of breathing early because it's almost impossible not to . So when you JUST START to roll to your breath your recovering hand should just be entering the water and the lead hand will just start to pull back . It is at this time when you follow your shoulder to breathe. This should give you the timing but make it all one motion .Don't try to time it in pieces . Make it all one natural movement .

Dave

Last edited by daveblt : 07-12-2017 at 12:55 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 07-12-2017
tomoy tomoy is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 585
tomoy
Default

Rajan. If I imagine swimming with the 2BK, I see myself kicking _before_ breathing.

However I do think you risk overthinking this. If you try to micromanage that timing, you'll miss the more important thing, which is the feel f the water and harnessing the rotation with your whole body, all the components.

For example you state that you're in skate with no roll until the recovering hand enters the water. I would suggest that it is not black/white like this: roll/no-roll. During recovery (skate) the arm above water will exert a force downward on that side, so rolling begins. If you're trying to not roll, you're fighting against the very thing you want to harness, gravity's effect in initiating core rotation. The only time you're not rolling is that infinitesimally small period when you stop rolling one direction and start rolling the other. 99.99999999999% of your time, you're rolling one way or the other.

So I'd suggest go in with your brain OFF, mental eye's and all your sensors ON and try to feel the weight of your recovering hand as it enters and settles into spear position. Now try a wider recovery. Feel how that force is different. Try a narrow, high-elbow recovery, notice how that diminishes the rotation and pushes your front end a little deeper. This feeling is more important than timing every 5 milliseconds and trying to activate certain muscles in some controlled order to get it "right."

Best of luck!
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 07-12-2017
CoachBobM CoachBobM is offline
Coach
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 647
CoachBobM
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rajan View Post
Thanks for your post Coach Bob.

But I am sorry to say that I did not feel like my problem being solved.

You told me that breathing has nothing to do with downward kick. Do TI swimmers start rotating to breathe after downward kick or before downward kick ?
You can get a feeling for how a 2-beat kick should coordinate with your core body rotation by doing the following:

Stand on a floor with just your socks on and with your feet slightly apart. Rotate your body back and forth about the axis of your spine while keeping your feet at the same spots on the floor. The motion your legs will make relative to your core body is more or less the same as the motion they should make when you are doing a 2-beat kick: When your body rotates to the right, your left leg will inevitably move backward relative to your body and your right leg will inevitably move forward relative to your body. When your body rotates to the left, the reverse will happen. There's no reason that you can't make the arm and head movements associated with freestyle swimming and breathing while you do this.


Bob
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 07-13-2017
Rajan Rajan is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 211
Rajan
Default

Hi Tomoy,

Actually what happened during past years that I had spent a lot of time practicing swimming without kicking, not even a single downward kick. As my balance was good, I did not feel the urge to kick. During this practice, the moment my recovery hand reaches the mail slot(water surface), I waited for the gravity to pull me. I used to give a little pause at mail slot to experience that gravity. A TI coach noted this pause and advised me not to give any pause at entry. This is first rotation that everyone experience during gravity. I used to rotate my head following shoulder when gravity started pulling me.

Later I started incorporating two beat kick in my swimming practice and followed all those advices like lats should be engaged etc. Two beat kick has not been a problem during non breathing stroke. I was told that downward kick initiate rotation, so I ignored that rotation caused by gravity. I was told that downward kick should be executed when hand is wrist deep in water. I thought as downward kick initiate rotation, so there is no need to harness that gravity effect to rotate. . So I waited my recovery wrist to enter the water and then I used to kick downward.



My original question was based on the above understanding. Now I am rephrasing my question.

When hand reaches the water surface, rotation happens due to gravity and I should move my head to breathe following shoulder and after that when wrist is completely submerged in water, I should kick downward. Is that so ?


If you see the above underlined facts, you can imagine how this confusion arises.

Regards
Rajan

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomoy View Post
Rajan. If I imagine swimming with the 2BK, I see myself kicking _before_ breathing.

However I do think you risk overthinking this. If you try to micromanage that timing, you'll miss the more important thing, which is the feel f the water and harnessing the rotation with your whole body, all the components.

For example you state that you're in skate with no roll until the recovering hand enters the water. I would suggest that it is not black/white like this: roll/no-roll. During recovery (skate) the arm above water will exert a force downward on that side, so rolling begins. If you're trying to not roll, you're fighting against the very thing you want to harness, gravity's effect in initiating core rotation. The only time you're not rolling is that infinitesimally small period when you stop rolling one direction and start rolling the other. 99.99999999999% of your time, you're rolling one way or the other.

So I'd suggest go in with your brain OFF, mental eye's and all your sensors ON and try to feel the weight of your recovering hand as it enters and settles into spear position. Now try a wider recovery. Feel how that force is different. Try a narrow, high-elbow recovery, notice how that diminishes the rotation and pushes your front end a little deeper. This feeling is more important than timing every 5 milliseconds and trying to activate certain muscles in some controlled order to get it "right."

Best of luck!

Last edited by Rajan : 07-13-2017 at 11:04 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 07-13-2017
bx bx is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Bournemouth, UK
Posts: 422
bx
Default

Hey Rajan,

Been working on kick timing too, here's my 2 centimes..

First, I totally concur with Coach Bob M's response, above. And if you can do that drill while horizontal in the water, feeling your legs naturally want to move in counterbalance to your body rotation, so much the better.

I would say that the kick does NOT initiate body riotation. Gravity does, so you were on the right track with that.

So, when do you issue a kick? Try this:- Push off from the wall with left arm outstretched, and immediately take a good, firm stroke back with that arm, without moving your legs. Feels kinda weird? Now do the same thing, but this time, issue a downward kick with the left leg at the moment when you've got good pressure on your stroking arm and hand. It should feel much more solid. This is called the "connection" between the stroking arm and the same-side leg.

In TI, you then do a mental somersault, and instead focus on kicking with left leg to add authority to the opposite arm spear. But maybe just start with feeling the connection between left arm stroke + left leg kick.

Last edited by bx : 07-13-2017 at 02:52 PM.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are Off
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 11:44 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.