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  #1  
Old 05-27-2017
dk2943
 
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Default Arms

I have been swimming for a while and have developed a good rhythm. I found TI a few months ago and have been making changes.
Right now, I am focusing on arms. My arms are always in motion. As soon as my arm hits the water in front of me, I begin the pull. Meanwhile, my other arm is in back of me and is coming out of the water to move forward. By the time my trailing arm hits the water, in front of me, my other arm has finished its pull and is in back of me, and so on. It is almost like a windmill, I am comfortable with this and can swim many laps with no problem

Watching the videos, it appears that when an arm moves to the front and hits the water, it stays in place and does not begin its pull until the other arm has been brought forward and is about to enter the water. I have tried to do this, but it really upsets my rhythm.

Am I right in my analysis of the videos? Should I make a greater effort to change my rhythm?
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  #2  
Old 05-27-2017
borate borate is offline
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TI promotes the "patient hand" - essentially what you describe: aka front-quadrant swimming. HOW patient is relative to speed, balance and ability.

Whether you should alter your style is subjective, and "glide" is a controversial topic. Check out TI literature for a better understanding of this concept.
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  #3  
Old 05-27-2017
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Advantage of a more front qudrant timing could be
- balance (weight upfront before lungs)
-streamline (longer vessel fo a longer time)
-time to establish a solid catch on the water. (obvious)

But wheter you can take advantage or need these items is hard to tell from words alone.
Janet Evans and Popov for example where close to windmilling and nobody considers them bad swimmers.
If you have a good rhythm thats serving you well, thats a great asset.
But there are many rhythms. A front quadrant style can have a certain rhythm. A loping stroke can have a certain rhythm.

Still, I do believe that people have a prefered natural style. An Aquatic fingerprint. Some can change to any style, some are so individual that they always end up doing their own peculier thing.
Every style can be changed in detail to make its as efficient as possible within that style.

In the end its about general principles that determine if the total package is effective.
Balance, streamline, whole body swimming, good traction on the water, good rhythm, etc.

Its up to you to figure out how well you achieve those general swim principles
with your current stroke.
In my view you cant go wrong having as much traction on the water as possible.(if you can fit it in a rhythm) You also cant have too much balance or streamline. And streamline isnt only determined by the time you have an arm pointing forward.
Whats your pace and strokecount? There are some combinations that are off the chart in anyones book.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 05-27-2017 at 06:14 AM.
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  #4  
Old 05-27-2017
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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Hello dk2943,

Quote:
As soon as my arm hits the water in front of me, I begin the pull.
From TI's point of view, you should never pull. At least you should experiment a little with different timing. After full speared for a nanosecond (as Terry says) your front arm should drift without any force in his optimal catch position. For your feeling this part will be an extremely slow motion. Focus in forceless float to. Your recovery arm should enter in approximately front where your your other arm's catch is in position. And then try to hold the catch arm on it's place while rotating and spearing and driving your body over it...

You'll feel strange with that, but i'm sure it's worth some time. And if you hold your rhythm and times (or get back to them) you'll feel it as easier and better balanced.

Last but not least ZT is very right with his more general statement:
Quote:
In my view you cant go wrong having as much traction on the water as possible.(if you can fit it in a rhythm) You also cant have too much balance or streamline. And streamline isnt only determined by the time you have an arm pointing forward.
Enjoy it with best regards,
Werner
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  #5  
Old 05-28-2017
dk2943
 
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Swam my usual mile today and by the second half, think I have developed a rhythm that works, but reading through the posts, I see that TI does not like the arms to pull I am very curious about this, When I hold the leading arm out until the other arm hits the water, the leading arm has to pull back to start the process again. I cannot figure out how to do this without pulling, particularly after considering the idea that the finger should be slightly separated and the wrist flexible enough to change the angle of the hand so that the pull continues as the hand moves back.
So how do I pull the arm back without pulling?
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  #6  
Old 05-28-2017
Tom Pamperin Tom Pamperin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dk2943 View Post
So how do I pull the arm back without pulling?
A few thoughts on this question:

Obviously, your lead arm has to move backward. But if you PULL too aggressively, or with too much power in the pulling motion, your hand/arm will slip through the water while your body barely moves. That's what the TI Green Zone idea is all about--how many strokes should it take me to swim 25m?

Instead of pulling, you want your hand/arm to stay in place while you place a steady pressure on them. This steady pressure (NOT an aggressive pull) is not enough to make the hand/arm slip. Instead, your hand stays in place, while your body is pulled forward. When a good swimmer's hand leaves the water at the end of the stroke, it is actually FORWARD of where it entered the water.

So, knowing that focusing on PULLING often causes people to pull too forcefully, TI instead has swimmers focus on "maintaining the shape of the vessel" (keeping the body long, balanced, and streamlined, with a patient lead arm out front for much of the stroke).

The sensation you want for the motion of the arm is not a pull, but a pressure. Once you feel the water start to resist the backward motion of your arm, lighten up the pressure slightly. That will prevent your arm from slipping through the water and losing traction.

Develop an awareness of the sensation of pressure on your arm as it moves backward. Eventually you'll be able to choose how much pressure to apply, from feather-light to moderate pressure. It will feel like your arm is moving very slowly, but you will be swimming more quickly. Swimming speed has nothing to do with how fast your arm moves through the water. In fact, it's exactly opposite--a slow steady pressure is efficient propulsion. You'll be working hard to maintain the right body position and core tension, but to people watching you swim, it will look like you are hardly working at all.

Final thought: it's a lot like rowing a boat. You can put a lot of force into pulling the oars, but when you do that, the oars slip through the water and the boat barely moves. Better to keep pressure lighter so the oar stays in place and the BOAT moves through the water.

Good luck with your exploration of TI!
__________________
Tom
www.tompamperin.com

Last edited by Tom Pamperin : 05-28-2017 at 03:47 PM.
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  #7  
Old 05-28-2017
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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I agree with Toms description of the perception for the swimmer.

We had a lt of talk about propulsion and slippage in this thread.
http://www.totalimmersion.net/forum/...aradox&page=14
Fram page 14 I measured the actual slip of a pulling arm.
Cinclusion: elites slip half as much as avarage swimmers during the actiual pulling stage.
They have a better paddle, apply pressure on the padle in a more refined way (timing, spacial path), can have a better overall streamline and use more bodyparts next to the arms to help propulsion.

Anchor


Vault over the anchor point, mainly with this mechanism (and using kick, bodytwist etc)

(sorry for the size, tinypics didnt work anymore)

Last edited by Zenturtle : 06-01-2017 at 09:19 PM.
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