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  #51  
Old 05-07-2018
fooboo fooboo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Pamperin View Post

2. Establishing "grip" on the water early, and more importantly, getting the timing right so that the downward kick ("flick and hold") happens just as the underwater (pressing) arm passes the shoulder. This is closer to a windmill timing, but is still Front Quadrant timing as the arms are both in front of the head at the same point in the stroke.

So far, #2 seems to work better for me.
I think 2bk should be at recovery time. I do not say your timing is wrong for you.
For me it helps to throw recovery arm. An anchor comes later. not at the same
time. I tried it and my solution is: first recovery + kick, then an anchor.
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  #52  
Old 05-07-2018
Tom Pamperin Tom Pamperin is offline
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Originally Posted by fooboo View Post
I think 2bk should be at recovery time. I do not say your timing is wrong for you.
For me it helps to throw recovery arm. An anchor comes later. not at the same
time. I tried it and my solution is: first recovery + kick, then an anchor.
That's definitely different from what I'm doing. It also doesn't match what Terry demonstrates in the Freestyle Mastery videos at all, so it's interesting that you say it works well for you.

For me, the kick finishes just as the spearing arm reaches full extension. But by that time the anchor has been established and the propulsive pressing motion is also beginning. That timing has been pretty essential for me.

You say you kick "at recovery time." What do you mean, exactly? Can you describe when that moment happens? Are you saying you are kicking even later, after the pressing motion is finished and the arm is beginning the recovery?
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  #53  
Old 05-07-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
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I think your supposed to kick into the glide / extension (like breaststroke)
I've heard KPN say that if you can put 3 kicks into each glide you'll be flying.
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  #54  
Old 05-07-2018
fooboo fooboo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Pamperin View Post
You say you kick "at recovery time." What do you mean, exactly? Can you describe when that moment happens? Are you saying you are kicking even later, after the pressing motion is finished and the arm is beginning the recovery?
Recall Bill Boomer video? His protegee throws recovery side. I lead with an elbow.
That in my brain makes something like "throw this side of the body and help it
with the kick". Spearing arm stays extended all that time. Still. I wait for anchor
long after recovery arm reaches into the water. When I'm almost on the counter
flank, I start to bend that elbow and hold the water like I hold something solid.
I keep tension and "jump" over an anchor.
I hope I'm more helpful this time.
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  #55  
Old 05-07-2018
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CoachStuartMcDougal CoachStuartMcDougal is offline
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Hey fooboo, Tom:

I think you both are describing the same thing just from different perspectives, all part of a front quadrant stroke. But I'll warn you just a bit, trying to manage all those pieces you are describing at once you will probably get most wrong and/or introduce other destabilizing movements.

You will find the best results - easiest to manage and improve is to focus primarily on high-side (recovery) arm throw from pelvis, sending its weight and momentum forward while holding a clean edge (or skate). Since kick is timed with rotation, the weight and momentum of high-side arm triggers rotation through hips to toes for whole body propulsion. Get the high-side (recovery) motion right it will 1. rebalance, maintain balance of the vessel moving below the surface and 2. the weight and momentum of the recovery arm at forward extension or finish lengthens the spine and maintains posture. Done correctly you will feel an acceleration or surge as high-side arm finishes forward - not from the low-side arm pushing water back.

Stu
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  #56  
Old 05-07-2018
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mushroomfloat View Post
I think your supposed to kick into the glide / extension (like breaststroke)
I've heard KPN say that if you can put 3 kicks into each glide you'll be flying.
KPN is really describing a six beat kick: One downward kick connected to rotation followed by two kicks on her edge for total of 3 kicks per stroke or edge - or six kicks per stroke cycle, aka the "six beat kick"

Stuart
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  #57  
Old 05-07-2018
Tom Pamperin Tom Pamperin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal View Post
Get the high-side (recovery) motion right it will 1. rebalance, maintain balance of the vessel moving below the surface and 2. the weight and momentum of the recovery arm at forward extension or finish lengthens the spine and maintains posture. Done correctly you will feel an acceleration or surge as high-side arm finishes forward - not from the low-side arm pushing water back.

Stu
Thanks for stepping in. I have definitely felt propulsion from the spearing arm, almost as if I am being pulled forward from the wrist of the extended arm rather than being pushed forward by the pressing arm.

I also feel a lengthening of the spine--that "tippytoes" feeling Coach Mat has described in his blog.
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  #58  
Old 05-08-2018
novaswimmer novaswimmer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Pamperin View Post

The key for me right now seems to be starting that slow movement down/back with the underwater arm early--just a moment after spearing. When I do this, the water feels "thick" (I feel that first with my hand as the wrist bends slightly to allow the hand to grip the water) and there is much more resistance for my forearm to push against. It also leads to a very smooth connection with the kick--which again happens just a tiny bit before the underwater arm passes my head during the pull.

So, for me, getting the timing of the kick has been the key for me. That led to an earlier catch and less glide, with a feeling of "thick" water to push against.
I wonder if your sense of thicker water has as much to do with your body/legs being in a position of less drag at that point. A kick can actually increase drag if you don't have great ankle flexibility. By starting your down-kick a moment later than the pull, maybe you have a posture of minimal drag at the beginning of the pull, and therefore your body is not being held back by drag?
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  #59  
Old 05-09-2018
Tom Pamperin Tom Pamperin is offline
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Originally Posted by novaswimmer View Post
I wonder if your sense of thicker water has as much to do with your body/legs being in a position of less drag at that point. A kick can actually increase drag if you don't have great ankle flexibility. By starting your down-kick a moment later than the pull, maybe you have a posture of minimal drag at the beginning of the pull, and therefore your body is not being held back by drag?
That could well be a factor--I suppose that reducing drag would make the arm feel less slippage. The perception of thickness is definitely there, though, especially compared to how I was swimming 6 months ago.
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  #60  
Old 05-09-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
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Here we go fella's

https://youtu.be/wFsgNSDYzks
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