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  #31  
Old 04-30-2018
Tom Pamperin Tom Pamperin is offline
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Stuart,

that's really interesting--thanks. The arm seems to just fall into the catch. It also seems like the timing of the kick is the same as what Terry demonstrates in the Freestyle Mastery videos, with the kick firing as the non-spearing arm passes the head.

Next time I swim I'll try to see if this is similar to what I am doing.
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  #32  
Old 05-01-2018
Mushroomfloat
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal View Post
When you recover, try this rehearsal "Skate to Catch". You can also do this vertical as dryland rehearsal too:
Skate to Catch

This is in the spirit and really inspired by Coach Dave's high elbow catch demo/video, allowing the catch to happen with rotation, or when rolling off one edge to the other, hinging at the elbow. This followed with freestyle closing hands or "fist drill" helps turn off the impulse to pull and start to feel pressure on the forearm as you gently press back upon the water.

Terry really liked this rehearsal/drill and wanted to incorporate into future content. Mandy and I use it frequently in lessons and workshops and really helps shape and feel the vaulting arm, creating thick water.

Stu
Thanks! i have rehearsed it dryland and i could not work out how she was getting the catch above the head like that, then i realised the catch is driven into by the hip rotation?

2 questions if i may?

1. can i swim like that? ie would the elbow end up out of the water on the pull? or is it a drill designed to be done with slightly less rotation in whole stroke? looks like she is at about 60 degrees rotation there?

2. is that the recovery in reverse? driven up by the hips rotation?

many thanks, i shall practice it in water when i get back to the pool
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  #33  
Old 05-01-2018
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Originally Posted by Mushroomfloat View Post
Thanks! i have rehearsed it dryland and i could not work out how she was getting the catch above the head like that, then i realised the catch is driven into by the hip rotation?

2 questions if i may?

1. can i swim like that? ie would the elbow end up out of the water on the pull? or is it a drill designed to be done with slightly less rotation in whole stroke? looks like she is at about 60 degrees rotation there?

2. is that the recovery in reverse? driven up by the hips rotation?

many thanks, i shall practice it in water when i get back to the pool
Yes, catch driven by hip rotation. 1. Yes, and this is rehearsing the hinging of the low side arm to catch position. The (catching) arm must be fluid and soft, not tight. This helps remove the impulse to pull with the hand. Allow pelvis to trigger catch, not the other way around. 2. Excellent observation. Yes, follows a similar movement pattern and the recovery slicing in - in reverse, i.e. from catch return to skate is the recovery entry to forward extension.

When you have some mastery of this hip rotation and low-side arm hinging pattern, integrate into freestyle using the fist-drill, or with swimming with closed hands. Swimmer should be able to swim a length with either closed or open hands pressing upon the water (not pulling) and hit the same SPL. If SPL is +2 or more with closed hands, elbow in dropping puling with the fist, low-side/vaulting arm losing grip.

Developing the forearm feel of the pressure from the gentle press takes time, there are 10x the nerve endings in the hand than there are in the forearm. Reduce that feeling in hand and increase the feel on the forearm by just closing the hand. When you (re)open the hand, the movement pattern you developed remains the same. No bending wrist - it more like knuckles, wrist, elbow are fused in a straight line gaining the max surface area for vaulting.

Stu
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  #34  
Old 05-01-2018
Tom Pamperin Tom Pamperin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal View Post
Developing the forearm feel of the pressure from the gentle press takes time, there are 10x the nerve endings in the hand than there are in the forearm. Reduce that feeling in hand and increase the feel on the forearm by just closing the hand. When you (re)open the hand, the movement pattern you developed remains the same. No bending wrist - it more like knuckles, wrist, elbow are fused in a straight line gaining the max surface area for vaulting.
I've found that fistgloves do even more to reduce sensation on your hands than simple closed hand swimming--no water contact to trigger sensation.

Stuart, you've got me re-thinking my timing to try and incorporate that hinging motion into my stroke. It seems closer to my old way of waiting until after rotation to start the catch.

I've also noticed I have noticeably more tendency to drop my elbow with my left arm--that's not tied to breathing as far as I can tell, since I breathe bilaterally, and it even happens when I'm not breathing at all. Something to pay attention to. I can correct it but it takes a lot of conscious focus, and the "hinging" seems to help.

Thanks again!
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  #35  
Old 05-01-2018
sclim sclim is offline
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Quote:
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No bending wrist - it more like knuckles, wrist, elbow are fused in a straight line gaining the max surface area for vaulting.
Stu
Is this a strict rule, or only until the hingeing becomes natural?

I ask this because it seems to me, assuming the elbow hingeing action of the forearm-elbow-shoulder complex becomes natural and relaxed, preceding the catch with a wrist bend, then very precisely lessening the wrist-bend as the forearm starts to drop to vertical, eventually making a straight line with the forearm when the forearm reaches vertical, so as to keep the position of the hand vertical throughout the entire anchor phase would lessen overall drag, even if only very slightly.
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  #36  
Old 05-01-2018
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Nothing is a strict rule, but I would say adding tension and bending wrist will tighten hand and shoulder which triggers the impulse to pull with the low-side hand is an error and should be avoided. Similar to neutral head/spine/hips, the swimmer should have a neutral hand/wrist/forearm not only at catch, but throughout the stroke cycle. Tone and fluid, not tense or tight. Adding or changing the tension in the wrist and/or bending the wrist at certain points in stroke cycle is overly complex and adding unnecessary movements that have far greater chance to cause problems than it could ever solve.

I generally characterize movement patterns into major and minor movements. The minor movements have all the complexities and subtleties difficult to control and the swimmer will inevitably get them wrong attempting to manipulate those movements. The major movements, i.e. hip drive, releasing arm wide, arm weight and momentum forward, holding your edge - when these are right, all minor movements and their complexities will happen more consequentially, i.e. "catch happens", path of low-side arm from fwd extension through release past hip, recovery entry, forward extension, etc.

Stu
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  #37  
Old 05-02-2018
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Originally Posted by Tom Pamperin View Post
I've found that fistgloves do even more to reduce sensation on your hands than simple closed hand swimming--no water contact to trigger sensation.

Stuart, you've got me re-thinking my timing to try and incorporate that hinging motion into my stroke. It seems closer to my old way of waiting until after rotation to start the catch.
Yes, most likely. It's easy to move the low side arm too soon, pulling through rotation. Use high side arm weight and momentum connected to pelvis to rotate body.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Pamperin View Post
I've also noticed I have noticeably more tendency to drop my elbow with my left arm--that's not tied to breathing as far as I can tell, since I breathe bilaterally, and it even happens when I'm not breathing at all. Something to pay attention to. I can correct it but it takes a lot of conscious focus, and the "hinging" seems to help.
Yeah - it's a pattern to pull-rotate to breathe, elbow drops, grip is lost. Instead use high side arm weight and momentum to breathe - this is a very anti-terrestrial movement pattern :-) Resist the impulse to pull, it takes time - be patient with the process

Stu
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  #38  
Old 05-02-2018
sclim sclim is offline
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Resist the impulse to pull, it takes time - be patient with the process

Stu
Do I understand correctly that we should endeavour to "feel" for heavy water as early in the catch as possible (and maybe even leading up to the catch), but once we have felt and identified the heavy water sensation, we should continue to apply just enough pressure to maintain the heavy water sensation, but only to "anchor" and not pull.

If this is correct, I acknowledge it is difficult to exactly define what would "sufficient pressure", and what would be "pulling", but it is a distinction that can be worked on/worked towards in real time during the stroke. i.e., it is the conceptual idea that is important and that will eventually determine the difference in execution.
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  #39  
Old 05-03-2018
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Originally Posted by sclim View Post
Do I understand correctly that we should endeavour to "feel" for heavy water as early in the catch as possible (and maybe even leading up to the catch), but once we have felt and identified the heavy water sensation, we should continue to apply just enough pressure to maintain the heavy water sensation, but only to "anchor" and not pull.
I prefer using "feeling or creating thick water" not heavy - and not in any particular phase, i.e. "catch", only as the arm presses back upon the water. Rather than "anchor" I choose "vault over low-side arm" (Boomer, Kredich). Analogous to the pole-vaulter - plants the pole and launches body, weight and its momentum over the pole. If that pole should break, all that valuable momentum is lost. Similar to the low-side arm or vaulting arm - if wrist bends, pulling on hand, elbow drops, valuable forward momentum is lost. This is the counter argument to those who believe the low side arm must always move or "windmill" to prevent or reduce deceleration.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sclim View Post
If this is correct, I acknowledge it is difficult to exactly define what would "sufficient pressure", and what would be "pulling", but it is a distinction that can be worked on/worked towards in real time during the stroke. i.e., it is the conceptual idea that is important and that will eventually determine the difference in execution.
The level of pressure on forearm (low-side arm) will be different from swimmer to swimmer and their experience and developed awareness through repetition. Your feather light pressure could be my most firm pressure (imagine what my light pressure might be).

The word "Pull" has its own filters, at least in English. Pull implies grabbing with hand (bending wrist) and pulling (with hand), not holding or "vaulting" with the whole arm. This goes back to the freestyle's coined name of the "front crawl" which is language used to describe those movements based on our terrestrial and human perceptions at that time, and these perceptions still exists to this day.

Stu
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  #40  
Old 05-03-2018
fooboo fooboo is offline
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Eventually, after long time, I found the way to bend an elbow down in a
natural way, hold the water and use it as an "anchor". It all depends on
shoulder flexibility. In my case, shoulder should be high as an extension to
the body, me on an armpit and sealing head to that armpit. Rotating well
enough, some might say overrotating. From there I recover, enter the
water, start rotation, keeping lower arm still and high, in inner rotation.
When on counter flank, I naturally bend an elbow and hold the water.
Personaly, I feel quiet confident in keeping balance in this manner. Head
position helps.
Best regards all.
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