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  #31  
Old 12-13-2017
CoachBobM CoachBobM is offline
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Originally Posted by sclim View Post
An unexpected phenomenon occurred today -- or maybe I only recognized or noticed it for the first time. I have this problem of doing an inappropriate double kick (left-right) when rolling right (that is onto my left edge) when the appropriate kick should be a single right kick to help propel the roll
Do you currently breathe bilaterally? If so, have you always done so?

I was originally taught to breathe on only one side, and after many years of doing it that way was literally unable to swim an entire length of the pool breathing on my "wrong" side. That was my situation going into a TI weekend workshop in February of 1999, and I came out the following day breathing on both sides, and have been doing it ever since!

But I have, since that time, become aware of a number of asymmetries in my stroke that developed during all those years of unilateral breathing. It was Shane Eversfield who noticed during one of our coach workshops that I sometimes tend to kick with only one foot, and I'm sure that's because I spent a lot of years only rotating in one direction.


Bob
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  #32  
Old 12-13-2017
sclim sclim is offline
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Originally Posted by CoachBobM View Post
Do you currently breathe bilaterally? If so, have you always done so?
Yes, "quite well" now. And "No"...

History:

Entering first TI summer 2012 crash course, unable to breath bilaterally after 64 years of life "paddle swimming", breathing only to right.

By end of 2014 was breathing bilaterally (one breath in 3 strokes). Apparently easy enough, but realized that I was dreading every 6th breath (the newly acquired left side). Would take any trivial excuse to dodge the dreaded left breath to catch the next easy breath on right. But comforted myself with the easy reassurance that I could breathe any time on left if I really had to. Was devastated to discover, one day when I tried, that I could only breathe twice consecutively on left before aborting. i.e. I could not swim even half a short course pool length breathing only on left side!

So, January 2015 I spent 2 months breathing ONLY on left side. The first session almost killed me. But at the end I was pretty competent swimming bilaterally. To be honest I still prefer the right. But I now realize do it badly (i.e. right side breathing) with all kinds of pre-TI bad habits built in to it. On the left, it seems less natural, but because I learned it from scratch, according to TI specs and with TI drills, it seems much cleaner. I probably need another brutal month of breathing only on my left to retune my gradually returned preference to right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachBobM View Post
I was originally taught to breathe on only one side, and after many years of doing it that way was literally unable to swim an entire length of the pool breathing on my "wrong" side. That was my situation going into a TI weekend workshop in February of 1999, and I came out the following day breathing on both sides, and have been doing it ever since!

But I have, since that time, become aware of a number of asymmetries in my stroke that developed during all those years of unilateral breathing. It was Shane Eversfield who noticed during one of our coach workshops that I sometimes tend to kick with only one foot, and I'm sure that's because I spent a lot of years only rotating in one direction.


Bob
Hmm, because of our eerily similar past, your hypothesis rings very credibly true. Of course there may multiple overlapping reasons.

One fix I haven't explored yet is swimming with one flipper on the right side. I may be not fully aware (at the instinctive level) of the rotational potential of the right kick.

One puzzle to me, given your hypothesis, is why I don't have a clean single right kick (but rather, instead, a left, then right kick at that moment) which doesn't have much of a right rotational effect, when you would have expected it to be more highly developed for the single right sided breathing. The clue might be that maybe I never developed the notion that the appropriate kick could initiate or augment rotation, rather than "sort of propel me forward". So my right kick never developed the skill to do the rotating. Instead, I developed the habit of pushing down with my left hand during the left arm power phase, in order to lever my head up for air on the right. This took a long time to fix, and I am only totally sure that I'm not doing it on my left spear 2 and 4 strokes after the right breathing stroke, because part of my fix is staring at it underwater (don't worry, my head is properly aligned looking straight down, and I'm looking "upwards to the left" out of the top of my eye-sockets) to make sure the hand is held in correct angle, position, orientation, and duration, which I am very consistently achieving now. I am less certain I am doing this as correctly on my new "fixed" right breathing stroke, because the proprioceptive "house-keeping" is less precise for me than the visual fix I have for the other equivalent strokes, but I think I am largely properly aligned in left spear on these breathing occasions.

Last edited by sclim : 12-13-2017 at 03:30 AM.
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  #33  
Old 12-13-2017
Tom Pamperin Tom Pamperin is offline
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Originally Posted by sclim View Post
One fix I haven't explored yet is swimming with one flipper on the right side. I may be not fully aware (at the instinctive level) of the rotational potential of the right kick.
This kind of work with long fins (both feet, one foot, other foot, both feet)--100-200m per session--has really helped me understand my 2BK. I encourage you to try it out. I've found it's far easier to start performing ONLY the necessary movements in the kick, and holding the legs still and streamlined, when you swim a little with fins to get the feel.
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  #34  
Old 12-13-2017
gary p gary p is offline
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In the middle of a 20x125 set yesterday, I was tightening up and my completion times were creeping up. I noticed I was not getting much rotation to my breathing side. My initial attempts to correct that were met with some imbalance. What seemed to work well for me was to rotate my hand slightly outward (i.e. pinky downward) on the spear. Presto, I was getting good rotation without imbalance, still getting a nice catch, my SPL was more stable through the entire 125, and my times dropped about a second per repeat. I was able to hold that to the end of the set. I'm excited to get back in the pool again and experiment some more with hand rotation angle on spear and catch.
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  #35  
Old 12-13-2017
Tom Pamperin Tom Pamperin is offline
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Originally Posted by CoachBobM View Post
It was Shane Eversfield who noticed during one of our coach workshops that I sometimes tend to kick with only one foot...
I've noticed this at times in my own stroke. After you mentioned it here, I spent about 500m concentrating on kicking equally with both legs today.

Later, during a harder set, I discovered a new feel to my 2BK--much more streamlined and smooth, and legs remained perfectly still between kicks. So, seems like it's paying off. I'm going to keep using this as a focal point and see where it takes me.
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  #36  
Old 12-13-2017
daveblt daveblt is offline
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The thing that works for me when doing the 2 beat kick is concentrating on the end of the leg upbeat as the hand on the same side reaches full extension and then the downbeat sort of happens on it's own but for others it may be different.

Dave
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  #37  
Old 12-13-2017
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CoachStuartMcDougal CoachStuartMcDougal is offline
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Originally Posted by Tom Pamperin View Post
I've noticed this at times in my own stroke. After you mentioned it here, I spent about 500m concentrating on kicking equally with both legs today.

Later, during a harder set, I discovered a new feel to my 2BK--much more streamlined and smooth, and legs remained perfectly still between kicks. So, seems like it's paying off. I'm going to keep using this as a focal point and see where it takes me.
Hey Tom,

Even Shinji has an asymmetrical kick, light snap with right leg and more pronounced snap with left leg. See the "after TI" viewing the kick: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FrSTJLN_CY

It's similar with me too and I focus on a much more pronounced kick with left leg and kick little or not at all with the right - that perception and focus gives me a very symmetrical kick on the left and right.

Stuart
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  #38  
Old 12-14-2017
gary p gary p is offline
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Originally Posted by gary p View Post
In the middle of a 20x125 set yesterday, I was tightening up and my completion times were creeping up. I noticed I was not getting much rotation to my breathing side. My initial attempts to correct that were met with some imbalance. What seemed to work well for me was to rotate my hand slightly outward (i.e. pinky downward) on the spear. Presto, I was getting good rotation without imbalance, still getting a nice catch, my SPL was more stable through the entire 125, and my times dropped about a second per repeat. I was able to hold that to the end of the set. I'm excited to get back in the pool again and experiment some more with hand rotation angle on spear and catch.

This photo shows what it felt like I was doing.


Last edited by gary p : 12-14-2017 at 09:04 PM.
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  #39  
Old 12-14-2017
Tom Pamperin Tom Pamperin is offline
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Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal View Post
It's similar with me too and I focus on a much more pronounced kick with left leg and kick little or not at all with the right - that perception and focus gives me a very symmetrical kick on the left and right.
Coach Stuart,

I'm confused here--can you explain what you mean? Are you saying that your perception is that you have an unequal kick (you feel like you're kicking more strongly with your left), but that the perception is wrong, and your kick is symmetrical when you make it feel asymmetrical?
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  #40  
Old 12-15-2017
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CoachStuartMcDougal CoachStuartMcDougal is offline
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Originally Posted by Tom Pamperin View Post
Coach Stuart,

I'm confused here--can you explain what you mean? Are you saying that your perception is that you have an unequal kick (you feel like you're kicking more strongly with your left), but that the perception is wrong, and your kick is symmetrical when you make it feel asymmetrical?
Yup - that is correct. Perception vs reality. Although, it has been mostly corrected and is the level of "unconscious competence" now, but requires frequent maintenance. My right leg will try to take over as my mind fatigues
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