Yeah, voilā. Nicely put.
And thanks for returning the ball so smoothly by the way. I felt on unstable ground here (I even deleted this post, hoping you had not read it lol)
So I thereby confirms that some of my works at the moment are inline with TI philosophy, but I'm braking so many rules that it's not even worth trying to figure out which is which.
First I limit this sort of work mostly with a pull. I want purity in the posture, and want to monitor improvement in torque per stroke. So I won't mind my (mostly tri) athletes to enjoy the comfort of a pull buoy during these. That's hard ultra specific aquatic pilates.
I work in a way that's probably very close to traditional ti way only with those from whom I expect a sound 2bk, and that's not too many people in the end. Better show a great balance, natural one that is (consider that I throw the towel in advance in this regard, with those who aren't blessed). Also with those who have extreme drag issues too. We may take an extreme dps focus for some time.
My approach is so simple. I reach for fair balance between speed and endurance, which remains an individual thing, and when I work on speed, that's flat out 6bk high velocity no glide as fast as you can swim for your life no thoughtfulness at all. Flat out. Like swimmers do. Like kids are asked to do, throughout their learning process. But I do it for the same reason TI motivates some of her choices. Neuro muscular development. I take this very seriously, and welcome the contribution of sprinting to this.
And the hybrid is fun too. Gim me your *dream* pace for a 400, over 50-100m distances (ā la rushall). Forces you to swim in control and avoid trashing.
As you can see, my position will never entirely be comfortable, but it's a chair that's been fitting me ok so far.
By the way, (gees I was lucky) I went to the little web page, and wondered... http://www.arhy.org/swim-predict
How fast would Ian_mac need to swim over 100/400 respectively to expect 9:40 and 19 flat. First guess I tried 1:02 and more interestingly, 4:35!
First shot! Results : 9:39 and 19:58, respectively for 800 and 1500. Doesn't matter yards or meters, as long as the 2 inputs are same measurement.
And *that*, gives you an ideal SDI of 1.07. Fairly well for a 1500 specialist . If you look at this time over 400 and are like "Hey are you crazy?", then... you have to aim toward a flatter SDI, ie 1.06 and less. And that could mean serious endurance training to reach these values given such a low SDI. I just ran this test + a few others. Play with the page. See for yourself. You may achieve case figures that are closer to your actual profile as a swimmer.
Last edited by CharlesCouturier : 10-14-2012 at 11:48 PM.
this is one of my favourite threads of all times in this forum. Therefore, rather than starting a new thread I chose to resume this one to give new members the opportunity to read the whole thing. It's very long but I think it's worth reading, and too bad that people like Ian Mac or Charles don't post anymore.
Anyway, here is a favourite set of mine. It's not only a "formula" for a faster 1500 but a good compromise between speed and endurance work. This set has been presented by Gerry Rodrigues in a recent podcast, I like to do it the TI way.
Gerry's set is as simple as this:
3 rounds of
- 20x25m fast (zone 5) with 10s rest
- 400m aerobic (zone 2)
He states that 10s rest between the 25's are enough to bring heart rate down to threshold level and start fast again. The goal is keeping a target pace like in USRPT. And the 3 aerobic 400's should be as steady as possible (it's quite challenging to keep up in the last one after 60 intense 25's).
As I said I'm doing it the TI way, that is: once I chose my target pace for the 25's, I choose a precise SPL/SR combo to match it and then try to complete the sets with the same metrics (same rate, same distance per stroke, same speed). Same metrics, not necessary same stroke (for instance I can switch from 2bk to 6bk to match the metrics if needed). In my case my target pace is 20s (SCM) and my comfortable combo is 19SPL at 66SPM(or 0.9s/stroke). After the 19th stroke I have one beep left to touch the wall in exactly 20s. When fatigue starts to build I should need to add the 20th stroke and still touch in 20s. If however I come behind the beep I call it a failure but I go on anyway. Moreover, I try to swim this 25's with a mid/long distance technique: I breathe every 2 strokes (in a sprint I wouldn't breathe at all), I try to use a light 2bk as long as possible (not a powerful sprint kick) or a light sustainable 6bk when I feel I need a bit more DPS.
When I'm able to complete the 3 sets without failures, my idea is to:
1) translate the mastered pace to the 50's
2) swim the 25's a bit faster (always with 10s rest)
So the previous set could evolve into something like
- 10x50m at 19SPL/66SPM with 15 to 20s rest
- 400m aerobic
- 2 rounds of
- 20x50 at 19SPL/68SPM with 10s rest
- 400m aerobic
And when I don't fail in the 50's, translate the mastered pace to the 75's and swim the 50's and 25's a bit faster.
In the meanwhile the aerobic 400's should be as steady as possible and should eventually benefit from the speed work as a byproduct.
I repeated this set in the last 4 sessions and I'm enjoying it much and already seeing some improvement either in the 25's and in the 400s.
Even if I'm open water and distance oriented, one of my goals is to improve my 400m time and develop some more speed in general. I like Gerry Rodrigues sets because they're a good blend between speed and endurance work.
Hope you like this "formula", happy swimming everyone.
Thanks for the interesting post! This is one of my favorite forum threads as well and I review it often. That being said I think your project is interesting in a different way... How to create training sets that are slightly more specific to the principals TI is teaching. Your project is a perfect example.
I have a few questions for you.
do you have a 400m baseline time that you can use to evaluate imrpovement?
What are your target times/SPLs for the 400 (zone 2) for each round?
While I don't disagree that combining speed and endurance work in the same practice keeps things itneresting, I don't think that the physiology of hte first set is exactly what Gerry thinks it is... I don't think you can sustain VO2 max effort for the +/- 20 sec 25 yard swims for a 10 minute set with 10 seconds of rest inbetween. The duration of the set is too long and the recovery too short to allow for VO2 max levels to be maintained.
I have a protocol to help determine your VO2 max swim pace or you could simply swim all out for 5-6 minutes and use that pace as your target 25 pace, while being aware of your SPL. Try that pace plus 10 seconds rest...I'll be pleased if you can hold that pace and do it 20 times in a row. Maybe it's possible, but I admit I'm a bit skeptical.
When I'm in better CV condition and a bit more durable I'll try it myself.
My next thought is that in your interpretation of the set, I'd suggest that you SIT OUT a repeat if you miss on the SPL, rather than simply acknowledging and continuing on. While it's better than no awareness, the USRPT side of the inspiration would suggest you sit out the next round, and if it happens 3 times in teh set you simply stop for the day. There are a few more "rules" to that as well. But I don't see the value in contininuing once you know you're over your set target, with the exception of possibly ONE additional repeat to see if you can reign it back in. But if #2 is over, then rest Otherwise you've only partially "TI-ified" the set, adn turned it into a physiologic set where you hope you improve by pushing through.
That being said, I like the way you have set up some parameters where you won't continue to progress your practices utnil you are "successful" at yoru 20x25 holding your SPL where you've chosen.
I'm curious if you have a similar set of parameters for the easy 400, or if you are using it as a "swim down" between the sets of 20 x 25?
Looking forward to hearing more PLUS I'd encourage you to start a new thread, reposting your post above as the first post. If you do, I'll copy my post below it as well.
Suzanne Atkinson, MD
Coach of 4 time USA Triathlon Triathlete of the Year, Kirsten Sass
Steel City Endurance, LTD
Ok, I'm not Sclim, I'm Salvo :) We had an interesting talk about SDI, swim prediction tool and aerobic vs neuromuscular training last year.
About baselines: my last timed 400m (I swim in SCM) from a pushoff is of January and the time was 6:12. Other baselines were 24:15 on 1500m and 50:00 on 3000m (52 in open water in september). I was doing mostly aerobic and css training, then I had to stop swimming for 1 month because of a bad dermatitis around eyes. I lost A LOT of aerobic fitness but this is slowly coming back. Anyway, when I was back to the pool I decided to start over with something more USRPT like, because my weakness has always been speed and, like this article states, speed first endurance second.
So I assume my baseline for the 400m could be 6:12. I hope to get under 6:00 soon.
I'm not sure what Gerry exactly means by zone 2 and 5. Anyway I'm doing the 400's at an aerobic effort which is close to a threshold effort. I don't use TT, just try to complete them in under 6:40 at 19-20SPL. Today I hit 6:26 in the first one, 6:34 in the 2nd, 6:35 in the 3rd.
About the 25's: if at some point I hit 20SPL instead of 19 but still can touch the wall in 20s I don't feel too bad because I know that if I flipped I wouldn't need to take that last stroke. You know, I try to swim these 25's with a 400m (or up) stroke in my mind: as easy and aerobic as possible but definitely faster than my css pace. And when I hit a failure I go on (despite usrpt recommendations) for 2 reasons:
1) I fail by less than 1s, I'm not blown or feel like my stroke is getting too bad, I feel like my body is still learning
2) I don't like to shorten the sets in general
Today for the first time I didn't fail, though in the last round I had to use the 20th stroke quite a lot or rely on a strong 6bk to hit 19SPL. Between the 2 workarounds I prefer using the 20th stroke with a 2bk rather than 19SPL with a powerful 6bk, because the 1st one is more distance oriented.
Now a question: about VO2 max swim pace, what do you mean by swim all out for 5-6 minutes? What distances and how much rest in between? Or do you mean 5-6 minutes continuously? If you mean continuously my pace would certainly be slower than 20s per length.
Anyway I'll start a new thread as suggested. Thanks again!