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  #21  
Old 11-11-2012
andyinnorway andyinnorway is offline
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I think I understand the difference Terry and Suzanne describe.

With a fully straight arm, the arm is locked and so takes a considerable effort to move into a high elbow catch position

With the draped arm the elbow isn't fully locked and the shape of the arm from armpit to fingers has a slight but noticeable curve

The advantage of this is that the draped arm is in a position to setup the catch instantaneously on demand.

These are the best pictures I could find to try to illustrate until we see Suzanne's video.

The lady in the black and white is traditional straight spear.

The man in the colour picture is for my understanding more 'draped' look at the bottom image of the arm about to enter the water, as he continues this strokes his arm will maintain that slight 'bowed' look in the water and the catch will be easier to initiate?
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File Type: jpg draped.jpg (7.3 KB, 36 views)
File Type: jpg traditional.jpg (3.8 KB, 30 views)
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  #22  
Old 11-12-2012
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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In fact, this is a big big big feature of the TI stroke; probably one of my favorite characteristic of the stroke. Makes it accessible to all.

Way too often people refer to the way elite swimmers pull the water, without referring (at all) to what elite swimmers do in order to be able to pull the water the way they do.

Obviously the offset of this approach is that one might argue that this lower arm posture may increase drag resistance, but I'm assuming that this was already studied and addressed by those who, over time, have designed this stroke.
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  #23  
Old 11-12-2012
sinker sinker is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andyinnorway View Post
I think I understand the difference Terry and Suzanne describe.

With a fully straight arm, the arm is locked and so takes a considerable effort to move into a high elbow catch position

With the draped arm the elbow isn't fully locked and the shape of the arm from armpit to fingers has a slight but noticeable curve

The advantage of this is that the draped arm is in a position to setup the catch instantaneously on demand.
Andy,
This is also the conclusion I have reached. Propulsion and slow speed are an issue I have been working on with my stroke, as I believe my balance and streamlining are now at least decent. Intuition tells me that this draped arm entry may fit right in with what I want to accomplish. I have been trying to focus on an open armpit and using my pecs and lats more on the stroke. I believe that a really good stretching extension may be accomplished with this draped arm idea while focusing on the open armpit while extending. Hopefully combining all this with the draped arm will result in a more effective catch, hold and stroke.
Looking forward to my next swim tomorrow.
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  #24  
Old 11-12-2012
craig.arnold@gmail.com craig.arnold@gmail.com is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier View Post
In fact, this is a big big big feature of the TI stroke; probably one of my favorite characteristic of the stroke. Makes it accessible to all.

Way too often people refer to the way elite swimmers pull the water, without referring (at all) to what elite swimmers do in order to be able to pull the water the way they do.

Obviously the offset of this approach is that one might argue that this lower arm posture may increase drag resistance, but I'm assuming that this was already studied and addressed by those who, over time, have designed this stroke.
I was practising "mail slot" entry and spear to the lower position this morning.

In practice for most of use who do not have the mobility and strength in our joints/tendons of elite sprinters we just can't get that early catch at all, or if we can we injure ourselves if we do it too much.

On our recent TI workshop I could see on the video of myself that I was trying to spear too flat and even though I imagined I was getting a good early catch, in fact I was mostly just pushing down and that was disturbing my balance. (Actually it's more accurate to say it was pointed out by a coach and I managed to see what they were talking about.)

With the mailslot entry and spearing to a lower position you can get an immediate and effective catch on rotation. I've been trying to see how low I can go on my SPL and was finally able to get down to 9.5 SPL on the 20m pool but NOT when my spear was too close to the surface. It had to be a good 20-30 degrees downward angle. And it was smooth with no splash or bubbles. Actually this is another example of how the drills and the stroke interlock; I was focussing on mailslot entry, quiet and smooth and no splash - after 500m or so of this I realised that my SPL was going down. A little bit of counting and suddenly I was down around 10SPL instead of my more usual 12-13.

This is what the TI method leads to: Focus on one thing carefully but be receptive to the totally of the changes that are occurring elsewhere. Everything is connected.

I imagine the precise position of the spear can vary according to two criteria:

Firstly your own individual mobility and strength, if you have the flexibility then by all means spear a little higher. This is in a way analogous to the 2BK v 6BK, beware that you may only be getting a very marginal increase in propulsion at the cost of a lot of extra strain on muscles and joints.

Secondly I think pace/stroke tempo has something to do with it. I have noticed from the TI videos that as tempo goes up the stroke tends to get a bit flatter, this makes an intuitive sense to me as there will likely then be extra momentum to make it worth the slight reduction in backward pressure at the start of the stroke. You can see this when Terry swims fast in the lake in the openwater video. It's probably better to lose a bit at the back and put it into a slightly more streamlined position at the front as tempo increases.

Finally, I expect a lot of people (and I think myself included until a few weeks ago) in a quest to "feel" the water and get a good catch are actually moving their hands around in the water but not generating extra propulsion, probably the reverse. It's an affectation most of us can do without.

Last edited by craig.arnold@gmail.com : 11-12-2012 at 07:47 PM.
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  #25  
Old 11-12-2012
Mike from NS Mike from NS is offline
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I think another look at Shinji's freestyle demo is in order here, where we see his high elbows and can almost feel his weight shift in his stroke. This clip also shows the draping arm as is also seen in the "6 frames of Shinji" that appears in this thread. The patient hand lead is also visible at 1m27sec and 2m27sec on Terry's video.

Isn't it simply the point of these discussions to gather all the info presented here and see what works best for each of us. We know what we do and what we think we do are often quite different. So if we do what we think we should do (as presented here), we should become more skilled with any luck we will start doing that which we think we are doing. OK ... now I'm confused as well. And, I so need to separate some snow flakes while riding on a chair lift !

Back to my leaf raking, which btw I'm finding to be a good for core strength development and training for hip rotation .... a bit at least !!

Mike
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Last edited by Mike from NS : 11-12-2012 at 09:34 PM.
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  #26  
Old 11-12-2012
haschu33 haschu33 is offline
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Thanks, Andy, that makes sense.

I just mentally replayed what I am doing and I in fact never lock my arm. Usually I keep the elbow out, meaning rotation inwardly of the arm and from there move into the catch.

But, there is still some confusion. When I watch the 'ultimate freetyle demo' I see Terry keeping his arm almost parallell to the surface while spearing with the hand leisurely hanging down. It is not a downward spearing. And he keeps his arm in that position for some time.

Does that mean that the draped arm does not refer to the angle of the spearing but only to that non-locked arm position?
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  #27  
Old 11-16-2012
CoachIngridMiller CoachIngridMiller is offline
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Stuart- This is fantastic! I was just doing some filming of myself from the front today. Now I can use these stills for comparison..Thanks.
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  #28  
Old 11-16-2012
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier View Post
Obviously the offset of this approach is that one might argue that this lower arm posture may increase drag resistance, but I'm assuming that this was already studied and addressed by those who, over time, have designed this stroke.
Yep, it's a tradeoff. Humans must compromise when swimming...it's not our nature to swim. It's counterintuitive to drape when you want to spear striaght, but only experimentation..and trusting the experimental process will lead you to your best stroke.

I swim faster with less effort with the draped arm, but it's taken me several years to accept this idea and be willing to spend time in the pool playing with it.

I'm happy I've done so, and I put it to good use today on a 1 mile OW swim.
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