Total Immersion Forums  

Go Back   Total Immersion Forums > Freestyle
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #61  
Old 12-09-2014
Danny Danny is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,442
Danny
Default

I guess this is different for each person, and Talvi is doing a good job of trying to describe how to start exerting force, but for whatever it's worth, here is the gauge I use. Sometimes when I am swimming, I start to notice that my arms are getting tired and I feel like I am working too hard. When this happens, I start waiting longer to apply the pressure, and I focus more on spearing forward as opposed to pushing back. I feel like I've got the timing correct when my arms aren't tired any more and I sense that most of the power is coming from body rotation, not from working the arms. It's a wonderful feeling because I haven't lost any speed, but I no longer find it tiring!
Reply With Quote
  #62  
Old 12-10-2014
sclim sclim is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,499
sclim
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny View Post
I guess this is different for each person, and Talvi is doing a good job of trying to describe how to start exerting force, but for whatever it's worth, here is the gauge I use. Sometimes when I am swimming, I start to notice that my arms are getting tired and I feel like I am working too hard. When this happens, I start waiting longer to apply the pressure, and I focus more on spearing forward as opposed to pushing back. I feel like I've got the timing correct when my arms aren't tired any more and I sense that most of the power is coming from body rotation, not from working the arms. It's a wonderful feeling because I haven't lost any speed, but I no longer find it tiring!
OK, Danny, I tried to distill this additional helpful tip into the recent flurry of tuning advice from you and Talvi into this morning's swim. It went quite well. Notably, I am focussing on precise positioning and timing, smoothness in transitioning between phases, which hopefully will eventually result in a continuous, more or less graceful continuous repeated sequence. Mostly I'm concentrating on shaping the catch with only as much pressure is necessary for the job, as Talvi has suggested, body-rolling over the compressed ball of water being shaped by the catching arm at the same time (rather than actively pulling on the catching arm), and delaying the application of force till the bent arm is almost level with the shoulder moving past it.

I'm trying to think relaxed, as opposed to my somewhat grim mind-set on getting the job done, as I compare in retrospect to what I am trying to get now. I also am trying to integrate a hint from ysun29x in a comment in a different thread (freestyle:how to integrate a catch/pull?), that is, to include the shoulder blade in the pulling phase. This was easier than I thought, because, after all, the shoulder-blade (scapula, or, actually the latissimus dorsi muscle) was stretched out as far as possible during the elongation phase of the spear, and it was easy enough, when the time came, to remind myself to drop the shoulder early during the pull (i.e. depress the scapula towards my feet), rather than leave it shrugged up against my ear. And, of course, I am still leading the recovery with a shoulder initiated lift, as I learned to do last week, rather than thinking just elbow lift.

Talvi -- in the absence of confirmation of my earlier question, I am assuming that the following of the lead hand down the VW hood contour comes after the spear, which (I am assuming) is a separate earlier movement in a straight line angled down at a 30 degree (or so) angle. At least, that's how I am arranging the sequence in my head, and it seems to be working out smoothly and well.

I ended up being slightly less out of breath, with less subjective effort, yet did not suffer any loss of SPL at the same tempo, maybe even improved marginally on some tries. This is very encouraging -- thanks a lot guys.

Last edited by sclim : 12-10-2014 at 07:15 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 12-11-2014
andyinnorway andyinnorway is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,680
andyinnorway
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sclim View Post

Talvi -- in the absence of confirmation of my earlier question, I am assuming that the following of the lead hand down the VW hood contour comes after the spear, which (I am assuming) is a separate earlier movement in a straight line angled down at a 30 degree (or so) angle. At least, that's how I am arranging the sequence in my head, and it seems to be working out smoothly and well.
sounds like you had an encouraging swim.

Be careful when you think of the spear in a straight line. The catch is much easier to form if you keep the elbow pointing at the sky as you spear. In this position the arm has a slight and natural bow shape, the same as when we put our arm around someone's shoulder for a hug.
Reply With Quote
  #64  
Old 12-11-2014
sclim sclim is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,499
sclim
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by andyinnorway View Post
sounds like you had an encouraging swim.

Be careful when you think of the spear in a straight line. The catch is much easier to form if you keep the elbow pointing at the sky as you spear. In this position the arm has a slight and natural bow shape, the same as when we put our arm around someone's shoulder for a hug.
There are 2 possible interpretations I make from your words, maybe 3, if 1 and 2 are both correct.

One, are you talking about the slightly curved line being the snapshot diagram of shoulder-elbow-wrist-fingers in the static position during the spear?

Or two, are you talking about the path traced by the tip of the lead fingers. And also, if the arm is slightly bent, also followed by every subsequent particle that is attached behind this moving point?

When I hug someone, my elbows are pointed out more or less horizontally left and right to the horizon. I am not flexible enough to internally rotate at the shoulder until both elbows simultaneously point skyward. Really, 45 degrees (that is, halfway) on each side is the most I can achieve. Of course, if I am rotating my trunk axis to the right, then I can get my left elbow much closer to vertical; I take it this is what you are trying to get me to achieve.

Running through a dry land exercise, at this degree of full shoulder rotation, my elbow very naturally seems inhibited from extending fully. So with my elbow bend being slightly bent at the top of my internally rotated and extended arm, I see what you mean about the natural (rain-)bow shape of the spearing arm. I think TI teaches us to spear at an underwater target. In the interests of maximum accuracy, I have always been visualising a straight spear path. If the spear really is a banana, does the banana travel straight initially? Or, in your book does it follow the banana path too, in its precise path to the prearranged target?
Reply With Quote
  #65  
Old 12-12-2014
andyinnorway andyinnorway is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,680
andyinnorway
Default

hi

i think the path is straight just that the elbow is never locked so that the movement to catch is always prepared

this is phelps drilling with long stroke and exaggerated rotation but you can see the elbow is already prepped for catch as the hand enters the water.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zJSI0aoRfU

ditto shinji, ditto popov
Attached Images
File Type: jpg popov elbow.jpg (16.2 KB, 12 views)
File Type: jpg shinji elbow.jpg (23.4 KB, 13 views)
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old 12-12-2014
Danny Danny is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,442
Danny
Default

I think there are some pretty clear shots in this video of what you want when spearing and catching. That said, I think there is some room for individual variation here, depending on shoulder mobility and other things.
I suspect that even the coaches exhibit differences on this score.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rddHPTCt_8U
Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old 12-12-2014
sclim sclim is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,499
sclim
Default

OK, I got it, guys -- fully clear on that now --thanks!
Reply With Quote
  #68  
Old 12-19-2014
Talvi Talvi is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Lappeenranta, Finland
Posts: 1,675
Talvi
Default

Ok, late to the party (and thanks Danny!!), and it's sorted but .... now I'm either confused and/or disagree, a tad anyway :)

In my opinion, as a first step the spear and the catch should be felt as different. First the spear then letting your hand and forearm drape down into the catch followed by the upper arm to get the ball of water or commence digging the trench as ZT put it recently.

Having said that I hear what Andy says I just think it's a bit advance i.e that it's easy if you're not very good to get an impatient spear and move thje centre of balance backwards as the water will immediately try to push your arm back if you don't resist it. It sounds to me like great advice once you get under the 2:00/100m pace for a continuous swim. Above that I feel/suspect a tendency to cut short or poorly form the spear and get in a tangle. What I see in those shots Andy posted is the hand entry rather than the spear, whcih I feel as the underwater part of that action which leads to the full elongation.
__________________
A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
~ George Kelly

"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov

Last edited by Talvi : 12-19-2014 at 02:45 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #69  
Old 01-13-2015
sclim sclim is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,499
sclim
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier View Post
Now all that said. You can chop at the back too. Most nowadays will tell you it's not a big deal... but not me ;-) In fact, in my humble opinion, in increasing the rate the feeling should be to more rapidly roll over a very smooth and easy skate/catch, enjoying how easy it is to pull yourself over (since you didn't waste time at the front), BUT still focusing on ensuring you have a nice efficient dynamic exit/snap. Because it is holding on to this phase that will allow you to keep healthy distance per stroke. Again, just be careful with the elbows....
Charles sorry for the question from something you said so long ago -- I'm a slow reader :-) I just want to make sure I understood your point correctly. All the other features of practicing slowly with long DPS you have to modify or even eliminate when you get back to high stroke turnover. But the exit snap which can (efficiently) add a bit of distance to your stroke can still be retained when you speed up the turnover. Did I understand correctly what you meant?

Last edited by sclim : 01-13-2015 at 07:46 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #70  
Old 01-13-2015
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,244
CharlesCouturier
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sclim View Post
Charles sorry for the question from something you said so long ago -- I'm a slow reader :-) I just want to make sure I understood your point correctly. All the other features of practicing slowly with long DPS you have to modify or even eliminate when you get back to high stroke turnover. But the exit snap which can (efficiently) add a bit of distance to your stroke can still be retained when you speed up the turnover. Did I understand correctly what you meant?
Yes, that's exactly how I try to teach the free, with an abnormal focus on this phase.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are Off
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 01:52 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.