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  #1  
Old 12-19-2008
subway2 subway2 is offline
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Default How to pull the extended hand?

Hello,
I'm new to swimming and TI, started 2 months ago at the age of 33. I have Easy Freestyle DVD and the Triathlon TI book. I watched the DVD completely but haven't finished reading the book. Now I'm familiar with the TI terminology like sweet spot, lead hand, hidden head, balance, patient hand etc. used in the book and on the DVD.
I finished all the drills a couple of weeks ago and started to apply what I learned to my swimming. This week my shoulders are aching. I found the reason for that: it was my straight arm pulling. To be more clear, while pulling my extended hand my whole arm is as straight as my grandma's walking stick.
I looked up the book and watched the DVD again to find an instruction about pulling, but I didn't see anything. I learned English at the university so maybe my outdated English is the reason not to find a solution in these meterials TI provided.
The quesiton is "Is pulling the extended hand important for TI?",
if yes, how should I do that?.
If no, how can I fix my aching shoulders?

PS. I saw Terry and Shinji pulling their hands in a different way but exactly not in my way.

Thank you all in advance...
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  #2  
Old 12-19-2008
Richardsk Richardsk is offline
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Possibly the reason you failed to find much detail on the pull with the lead arm is that TI discourages thinking of pulling. The aim is to anchor the lead arm and then roll the body round a fixed point (which is is a physical impossibility in water as I understand it, but an ideal to be sought earnestly). The nearer you can get to this happy state the more efficient your stroke will be. So basically you want to get your lead arm out in front of you with the fingertips pointing towards the bottom of the pool the wrist below the elbow and the elbow tending to point to the side of the pool and as near the surface as possible and then transfer your attention to the other arm as it spears to its target. Your body roll should make your ('pulling') hand describe the proper path through the water to exit near your hip.

You can do a visualizing exercise in front of a mirror in the comfort of your home. Raise one arm above your head in line with your shoulder with your fingers pointed slightly towards the mirror. Now bend your elbow so that the forearm is parallel to the floor. Now turn your body towards the hand and imagine yourself moving through water. As your body moves forward your hand, if it could stay perfectly still, would appear to be moving backward (somewhat akin to the illusion of motion when you are in a stationary train and another pulls out beside it). So to visualise this 'illusion' slowly move your hand down towards your hip. This is more or less the action that takes place when you swim. Because we don't live in a perfect world and because water is not as solid as the earth but more solid than air, it is not really possible to hold your arm perfectly still while your body moves past it and if you look at video footage of good swimmers you will see that the hand does in fact move backwards. Some slip is unavoidable but by trying as hard as you can to hold your hand and arm still in one place you can reduce slip and increase propulsion.

Terry and Shinji are better at doing this than most of us.
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Old 12-19-2008
shuumai shuumai is offline
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The arm begins and ends the pull, or anchor, fairly straight. However, look at the second image in the progression. While the hand moves back in a straight line, the elbow bends and extends outward as the body rolls. Otherwise, the hand would move in a huge arc instead of straight back.






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Old 12-19-2008
subway2 subway2 is offline
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Dear Richardsk,
I guess I understand what you really mean. "You are not pulling your hand, in fact it's your body passing above your anchored hand". Hmmm. Ok. I'm sure it's not a pun but what makes the propulsion in the water if you don't pull your hand? Is it just your body rotation and your 2BK? Btw, thanks for the smart advice you give. I will keep it and try it in front of the mirror.

Shuumai, these are the pictures that I am exactly looking for. Yes. There is a 90 degree angle between the forearm and the rest of the arm. But in the DVD or the book it is not mentioned. However I see this manoeuvre of the forearm in elite swimmers videos. I don't know how to thank you.
Are there any drills to try this manoeuvre in the water?

Last edited by subway2 : 12-19-2008 at 01:39 PM.
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Old 12-19-2008
shuumai shuumai is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by subway2 View Post
Shuumai, these are the pictures that I am exactly looking for. Yes. There is a 90 degree angle between the forearm and the rest of the arm. But in the DVD or the book it is not mentioned. However I see this manoeuvre of the forearm in elite swimmers videos. I don't know how to thank you.
Are there any drills to try this manoeuvre?
Drills? Well...the concept of the intentional S-curve is not so popular here, but it might help to try it to get the idea of how the arm might move more naturally later.

Just imagine that you are standing with your arm raised to get someone's attention, but then you notice something on your shirt. It's a bug climbing right up the middle of your shirt! Brush it off onto the ground. That's basically an S-curve.
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Old 12-19-2008
subway2 subway2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shuumai View Post
Drills? Well...the concept of the intentional S-curve is not so popular here, but it might help to try it to get the idea of how the arm might move more naturally later.

Just imagine that you are standing with your arm raised to get someone's attention, but then you notice something on your shirt. It's a bug climbing right up the middle of your shirt! Brush it off onto the ground. That's basically an S-curve.
It is not popular but it is used by the creator of the technique. :)
To tell the truth, I find this a bit paradoxical. There must be another explanation.
Are there any TI coaches who is not using this manoeuvre?
I watched most of their videos on youtube. All the coaches even their students use it. Intresting...
Hope, Terry releases a patch (like microsoft patches) about this soon, because my shoulders are really aching :).

Last edited by subway2 : 12-19-2008 at 02:35 PM.
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Old 12-19-2008
shuumai shuumai is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by subway2 View Post
It is not popular but it is used by the creator of the technique. :)
To tell the truth, I find this a bit paradoxical. There must be another explanation.
Are there any TI coaches who is not using this manoeuvre?
I watched most of their videos on youtube. All the coaches even their students use it. Intresting...
Hope, Terry releases a patch (like microsoft patches) about this soon, because my shoulders are really aching :).
I intentionally used the word "intention." While an inward sweep happens in TI style, it isn't forced. It just happens naturally with body roll. If your arm is kept straight, I think the arm would still move closer to the body as the body rolls.

Check out Hagiwara-san's video. It emphasises the S-curve. Don't think that you have to duplicate any one person's style. Just play around and get a feel for things. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ef_u11QzTog

If practice ever becomes difficult, remember this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3MxUDzGwY8
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  #8  
Old 12-19-2008
subway2 subway2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shuumai View Post
It just happens naturally with body roll.
Does it?
In my case it doesn't. At least I think so.
Maybe I don't roll enough to make this happen naturally.
What else could it be?

First video is really good but the second one is perfect indeed.
Still laughin...
Helpless Phelps :)
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  #9  
Old 12-19-2008
dwdvagamundo dwdvagamundo is offline
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Default Drills

Subway2:

The best drills to get this point are underswitch and zipperswitch. The feeling is to focus on extending your non stroking hand as far as possible while trying to hold the "stroking" arm in place in the position mentioned aove while your hips and body switch to the other side. Don't think about moving the stroking arm--just about its position in the water and extending the non stroking hand.

If you do this right, your shoulders should not be as sore as your back because your body and not your arms and shoulders will be driving you through the water.
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  #10  
Old 12-19-2008
shuumai shuumai is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by subway2 View Post
Does it?
In my case it doesn't. At least I think so.
Maybe I don't roll enough to make this happen naturally.
What else could it be?

First video is really good but the second one is perfect indeed.
Still laughin...
Helpless Phelps :)
Yeah, poor Mikey.

Let's see...do you intentionally keep your arm straight? (We could call it a matter of style, but not a good one for you if your arms feel like they're about to break off.)

The idea is to feel pressure on the hand/forearm as a single unit. The longer you can make that happen the better, basically.

Some body roll is needed for easier breathing and recovery over the water. No need to over-do it.
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