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  #11  
Old 06-28-2014
Caro Caro is offline
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Yes the heart rate max formula is rubbish.
See this www.ntnu.edu/cerg/hrmax-info

I'm 52 and my heart rate goes up to 200 when running. I stopped worrying about it when I saw this.
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  #12  
Old 07-02-2014
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sclim View Post

Regarding terminology, then, VO2max is the highest VO2uptake that an individual can achieve, using all the tricks in the book, which means, usually, running on a treadmill, or with a moving collection platform on a track, right? Assuming that this VO2max, by definition cannot be improved upon, then VO2peak is the term reserved for the maximum VO2 uptake recorded during various other activities, such as bicycling or swimming; is my understanding correct on this?

When you said "in swimming it's even more dramatic" what exactly did you mean?

Various parameters exist for determining if "max" o2 uptake has been achieved including things like
-a plateaou on the graph of O2 uptake...does it flatten out or is it still rising when the athlete reaches his/her limits of intensity?
-has the respiratory exchange ratio reached 1.00 ? (it may be a different cutoff...but a cutoff exists...has the athlete switched fully into anaerobic energy usage)

Those are the two I recall off the to of my head. If that is not achieved than max has not been reached.

For a well trained swimmer who only swims, it's possible they may reach max while swimming and not while running since their conditioing is specific to swimming. But few of us are that well trained.

Max effort swimming is tiring, but will likely still not use as much muscle as max effort running. One may achieve Vo2 max while swimming but the only way to know is to measure it. But the HR needed for the same VO2 uptake may differ from swim to bike to run due to the postural changes alone.
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  #13  
Old 07-02-2014
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caro View Post
Yes the heart rate max formula is rubbish.
See this www.ntnu.edu/cerg/hrmax-info

I'm 52 and my heart rate goes up to 200 when running. I stopped worrying about it when I saw this.
Ditto, but look at the standard deviation of that graph in the article linked above? Formulas work as a rule for a very narrow population and you have no way of knowing if you are int hat group or not until you test your results. Better to skip the algebra and just go test yourself or collect training information.


http://steelcityendurance.com/testin...ont-be-fooled/
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Steel City Endurance, LTD
Fresh Freestyle

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  #14  
Old 07-03-2014
Caro Caro is offline
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That is pretty much what I and the article am saying. It does give you a test to determine your maximum heart rate but it is pretty unpleasant to carry out.
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  #15  
Old 07-03-2014
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Thanks for the link Caro. Great find.
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  #16  
Old 07-04-2014
sclim sclim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
Various parameters exist for determining if "max" o2 uptake has been achieved including things like
-a plateaou on the graph of O2 uptake...does it flatten out or is it still rising when the athlete reaches his/her limits of intensity?
-has the respiratory exchange ratio reached 1.00 ? (it may be a different cutoff...but a cutoff exists...has the athlete switched fully into anaerobic energy usage)

Those are the two I recall off the to of my head. If that is not achieved than max has not been reached.

For a well trained swimmer who only swims, it's possible they may reach max while swimming and not while running since their conditioing is specific to swimming. But few of us are that well trained.

Max effort swimming is tiring, but will likely still not use as much muscle as max effort running. One may achieve Vo2 max while swimming but the only way to know is to measure it. But the HR needed for the same VO2 uptake may differ from swim to bike to run due to the postural changes alone.
You're right of course -- this demonstrates the danger of trying to predict "what I think it ought to be" from my meagre fund of first principles, thinking of work cost, translated into O2 uptake, requiring corresponding cardiac output, loosely quantified by heart rate, which would be impacted by different factors in different activities affecting extra and intra-thoracic pressure, venous return, stroke volume, etc,..the more I think about it, it gets more murky, and it's gotta be actually really complicated, and why don't I just read the specific literature on work, cardiac output and heart rate in swimming lol!

Fortunately, I don't really care about my absolute HRmax swimming -- merely curious --(I've never bothered to get my running VO2max directly measured, either) I'm just trying to find a useful real-time guide to exertional intensity while swimming to help me later when practicing continuous longer distances. I'm currently limiting myself to 1 to 4 lengths at a time while working out TI and do-it-yourself drills designed to isolate whatever aspect of stroke I'm working on, to give me a comfort zone to focus on the skill, and time between sets to think carefully about what just happened. Oddly, during a long set, I sometimes find myself breathing rather heavily, (and subjectively, with a more rapid heart rate, which I'm resolutely not going to measure manually at length-end yet) which to me means I'm doing something or things inefficiently, which is what I'm trying to improve upon in TI, obviously.

If I were running at that degree of breathlessness, I could handle it, but as I am working from a history of semi-fearfulness in the water, and have only just achieved a smooth, mouth-half-at-the-waterline breathing stroke, and only on the Right side so far, I feel if I were to push myself to keep on swimming while breathless, I would end up either choking on water on a badly timed breath, or returning instinctively to my prior high mouth breathing "just to be sure". My priority right now is to cement this new breathing skill in stone, so it doesn't degrade, rather than to demonstrate that I have the intestinal fortitude to swim, willy, nilly, despite respiratory stress.

My interest, such as it is, in real time HR monitoring, is that later, once I am more consistent in good breathing technique, it might give an objective indication of the, hopefully, increasing exertion tolerance while still being able to maintain a smooth, low-horizon, efficient breathing stroke.

Last edited by sclim : 07-05-2014 at 02:38 AM.
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  #17  
Old 07-05-2014
sclim sclim is offline
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I was thinking a little more about this. I remember, (centuries ago, it seems,) seeing a picture of the apparatus used for measuring VO2, and thus eventually VO2max, while swimming. The subject had the breathing hose sealed by his lips to his mouth, clamped by his teeth. I didn't think much of this at the time, but now that I've painfully recently learned, and am still learning, how to finesse the exertion of breathing by barely rotating my head to just clear the upper angle of the mouth above the water, it occurs to me that this method will spare the subject the effort required to breathe properly -- he won't get a mouthful of water, no matter how he botches his breathing stroke!

I guess I don't really have a point. Just griping:) My own VO2max measured under those circumstances would be significantly higher than I'm capable of achieving right now without a mouthpiece under real life conditions!

Last edited by sclim : 07-05-2014 at 03:03 AM.
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