How much extra propulsion does optimal roll deliver?

[Zenturtle]

That's interesting, hard to say and hard to compare. Ten degrees is almost flat, I think of it as a waterpolo style which allowes for an easy high SR and short DPS. Viceversa 45 degs allow for longer DPS but slower SR. Since we're talking about cruising speed over a 1500, first of all I find it hard to imagine any swimmer, even one with super strong and flexible shoulders, cover such a distance with only 10 degs of body rotation (even those who seem flat above the water, actually rotate much more in my opinion).
Anyway, in this example I would imagine swimmer 1 taking advantage of an higher SR than swimmer 2 and holding pretty much the same speed (at least if I swim waterpolo style with little body rotation it's not slower than my cruising pace over a 1500 with full body rotation).
If instead you meant that the 2 swimmers are supposed to hold the same SR, e.g. 60SPM, swimmer 1 would be disadvantaged only for having to limit his SR when he could easily swim at 75SPM, given his almost flat body position. Swimmer 2 with his 45 degs would instead be comfortable at 60SPM and probably rushed at 75. So it's hard to compare for me.

When I feel like I'm rotating best, I usually shave 1SLP and gain about 4s/100m over my 1500m pace (at the same SR), but I cannot hold this for more than 600 or 800m, so it's not for free. Perhaps neuromuscular training would help here.

Cheers,
Salvo

I agree with your post. I have about the same experience,
It seems the armstroke produces drag, but also propulsion diring its movement.
Keeping the vessel rolling and horizontal also costs energy and an optimal compromise between propulsion and drag has to be found,
One also could ask, is this rolling vessel producing propuilsion by itself or is it increasing the efficeincy of the armstroke by delivering a solid foundation for the armstroke and enables better use of arm moving muscles.
I also have the experience that solid rotation with a big connected pull gives a lot of bang per stroke, but like you said, you dont get rotation for free.
(but it feels like the way to go eventually)

So, given the limited energy supply, do I choose to send 90% of the energy to the armstroke and 10% to the rolling vessel or make a different miix like 60% to the arms and 40% to the rest.
When only rotating 10 degrees, is it possible to dial in the optimal energy mix?
Like you said, it doesnt take much to rotate onlly 10 degrees at a low strokerate, but at a higher strokerate the more energy is needed for the rolling vessel, altering the energy mix toward the slowstrokerate/big roll again.
Most important is the fixed relation between armpull and rotaion. The gearratio between these is different. 45 degree roll at about 150 degrees armpull is 45/150 compared to
10 degrees roll on 150 degrees armpull is 10/150. As long as the gears are engaged and the power ratio dialed in, maybe they could work both.

Imagining again the swimmers are robots, with the same battery pack. Which one is faster?
I think the 45 degree roller will be faster. I am betting on 1.30min/100m against 1.40 min/100m pace.
Why? I tought TI was all about core driven swimming etc, so, you guys tell me....

Its because I am interested in the virtues of the VASA trainer. Thats basically dryland swimming without body rotation. How can this improve your swimming?
I bought a budger vasa trainer, Its called the totalgym 1000. (Chuck Norris, Tell Sell). Hardly used, only 40 euros.Incredible value for money.Cleverly engineered.
First impression: doesnt really feel like swimming. Too much force at the beginning of the stroke.Very good to strenghten and visually check your high elbow armpull.
Took 10 minutes in the pool to get some normal swimfeel back after using this dryland training. If this is a good or bad sign, time will tell.
Planning to do more training and see how it influences the swim.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by Zenturtle

I bought a budger vasa trainer, Its called the totalgym 1000. (Chuck Norris, Tell Sell). Hardly used, only 40 euros.Incredible value for money.Cleverly engineered.
First impression: doesnt really feel like swimming. Too much force at the beginning of the stroke.Very good to strenghten and visually check your high elbow armpull.
Took 10 minutes in the pool to get some normal swimfeel back after using this dryland training. If this is a good or bad sign, time will tell.
Planning to do more training and see how it influences the swim.

I would be interested in any feedback you can give us on how this helps/hurts your swimming technique over time. Let us know!

[Zenturtle]

Danny,

Its perfect for increasing forearm strenght so that the lats dont overwhelm the forearm muscles.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeHQyqI7zq0
Just used the trainer 3 x 10 min last week and Its already easier to keep the forarm/handblade vertical when the lats are pulling backwards hard.
Obviously , this results in a firmer grip on the water.
Because the force is constant during the vasa type inclined upward body pull, the force at the start of the pull is higher than in the water, and the end of the pulll is way too easy.
I am going to attach a bycycle tyre on the slideboard to increase the resistance at the end of the stroke.

its not all positive though.
For beginners whio do not have a solid core rotational base ( thats most of us), learning this may become even more difficuly when focussing too much on all this pulling technique.
if the lats dont overwhelm the forearm anymore, the next part of the chain will fail, and that is the core. More force on the upperbody requires more force to keep the body aligned and resist bending of the upperbody.
Before you know it the shoulders are pulling on a spaghetti body, loosing a lot of the possible efficiency gain in front traction in increased drag and ineffiiceint force transmission.

[CharlesCouturier]

I like and have used the vasa a lot (mostly in the past though).

Excellent for fly. It's a weight resistance substitute though, and certainly won't teach you anything technically that you couldn't learn using regular swim cords, which are much cheaper, and can be used just about anywhere.

The Vasa becomes a very nice option for someone who lacks muscle power. A good test? If you can exit the pool with a single pull up (from the side wall), and end up with both feet as being the first body parts that touch the floor, you have enough muscle power. If after trying, you are seriously wondering how people can ever do this, then you lack muscle power.

Be very careful if you want to try this test. Better to go progressively. Exit on a single knee. Then on both knees. Then on a single foot. Then on both feet. By the way, this sort of work is standard procedure when developing young swimmers. Like exiting the pool landing on both feet 50 times in a row.

Simple. The freestyle (and fly) is a combination of a pull up followed by a arm dip. Vasa nicely addresses both in a specific gesture.

[tomoy]

Ooh ooh ooh (raises hand). Swimmer 2 will be 3 seconds faster at 1:37/100M.

:-)

[sclim]

Originally Posted by Zenturtle

Its because I am interested in the virtues of the VASA trainer. Thats basically dryland swimming without body rotation. How can this improve your swimming?
I bought a budger vasa trainer, Its called the totalgym 1000. (Chuck Norris, Tell Sell). Hardly used, only 40 euros.Incredible value for money.Cleverly engineered.
First impression: doesnt really feel like swimming. Too much force at the beginning of the stroke.Very good to strenghten and visually check your high elbow armpull.
Took 10 minutes in the pool to get some normal swimfeel back after using this dryland training. If this is a good or bad sign, time will tell.
Planning to do more training and see how it influences the swim.

ZT I looked up VASA and totalgym 1000 and the common points seem to be basically a platform that you can lie prone on, and a system of rubber tubing or pulleys on weights arranged in such a way that you can pull with your upper arm as horizontal as you can manage, in a more or less forward pointing direction (subject to shoulder mobility) with the forearm as vertical as you can manage. The tubing could be attached to a stirrup like attachment to be put over your wrist, not held in the hand, so that any deviation from verticality would cause the stirrup to slip.

The keeping to the specifications I listed can be attempted by visual and proprioceptive discipline, but possibly may be enhanced by having a wide enough platform that will accommodate the horizontal upper arm, allowing the vertical forearm to hang over the edge on the side, or maybe over the front if the dimensions allow. Or you can fabricate a smooth semicircle of plywood or plastic and place it at the head of the bench, as in the style of the Halo apparatus. Am I on the right track, do you think?

[Zenturtle]

The Vasa has more options, but with some DY work you can add these to the totalgym too.
These extras are nice, but not essential.
You could attach a halo plate to the slideboard but that also looks like overkill.
its easy to see what your arm is doing.

The main advatage of the totalgym is that its dirt cheap second hand, and reasanable quality too.

[sclim]

Originally Posted by Zenturtle

The Vasa has more options, but with some DY work you can add these to the totalgym too.
These extras are nice, but not essential.
You could attach a halo plate to the slideboard but that also looks like overkill.
its easy to see what your arm is doing.

The main advatage of the totalgym is that its dirt cheap second hand, and reasanable quality too.

Good, that's what I thought.

[Zenturtle]

Ooh ooh ooh (raises hand). Swimmer 2 will be 3 seconds faster at 1:37/100M.

:-)

Ho, ho, give me some time to gather all the results ;-)

Expected speed increas by changing bodyroll from 10 to 45 degrees
Tomoy: + 3%
ZT: +11%

Science can be proud of us.;-)

Some time ago coaches adviced swimmers to swim as flat as possibe, until Mark Spitz beat everyone with his crazy roll.
There must be some basic competetive results available between the flat swimmers and the rollers during that transition period,
In speed skating someone invented the clapskate and times dropped a few percent when everybody started using them.
http://www.sportsci.org/news/news9803/clapnagano.html

[tomoy]

Yeah, I saw a youtube documenting the change one country's swim team made for the Olympics - it was in B/W. And they dominated until the world changed with them, and it was all about the flat vs rotated body position. Wouldn't surprise me if you posted that! Somewhere 3-6 months ago.